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Kevlar Antelope

Tue May 15, 2007 4:36 am


RoboCop 2 - What happened?

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Ok so I just watched RoboCop 2 after many, many years of not viewing it on it's old VHS tape I recently purchases the DVD.  Popped it in and was ready for a trip down nostalgia lane...which it was but it opened up a can of worms I was not expecting.

The scenes are there as I remember, the dialogue was there too, but the feeling was gone.  When I watch RoboCop everytime I view it I get into it and feel the emotions, get caught up in, and cheer on Robo.

This time around was kind well kinda like a machine.  Robo meets mechinal monster, they battle, the end.  What happened to the Murphy trying to rediscover his past?  He's practically stalking his wife in the beginning, and you feel bad for him and when she confronts him, he basically brushes her off.  The most powerful scene in the film is when OCP is questioning him in the very beginning about who he is.

After this the subject is never touched on again.  Like what happened?  Did they say ok the first 20 minutes is the emotion part the rest of the story is about a drug lord becoming a big robocop2 and then they fight...it's like a whole new movie.  Kid villain yep.  Softball team of 10 year olds beating up an old man.  PC Robo Cop, it's all there.

I guess I'm just a bit dissapointed in the lack of respect they truely gave this sequel, it could have been so much more.

Plus why do I not remember the plastic blue and purple hyrbid armor being this terrible?

Please if I'm not the only one here that feels this way lemme know, if not join in and tell me what you think.


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ibuybug

Tue May 15, 2007 5:09 am



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I pretty much agree with everything you wrote there. Especially the blue armor, yuck.


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Swedish Robot

Tue May 15, 2007 5:19 am



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I pretty much agree with everything you wrote there. Especially the blue armor, yuck.

It was gorgeous in night shots so... hush.


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Archive

Tue May 15, 2007 7:54 am



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I gotta say i find it a bit strange when people claim to be ROBOCOP fans when they seem to hate everything after RoboCop1.
Sure Robo2 is flawed but calling it "shit" as many people do is going a little to far. 

Personally i think the visual look and the colors of RoboCop2 is stunning, which includes the suit which is my favorite version. But story wise, yes, it's a mess.

From what the fans have found out and learned along the years, the production of robo2 was complicated, and all that was in the script didn't really end up on the screen. Many, many  of the more emotional scenes was cut in favor of making a more action oriented movie.


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Josh

Tue May 15, 2007 7:57 am



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I think its a case of 'we can make a sequel from a successful film and everyone will go to see it'.

And to be honest I dont think they put that much effort in...


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Archive

Tue May 15, 2007 8:02 am



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I think s a case of 'we camake a sequel from a scessf film and yone will go to see it'.

It's a bit early in the week for the booze isn't it? :huhwhat:

http://www.robocoparchive.com/board/shop/images/booze.gif


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Kevlar Antelope

Tue May 15, 2007 2:12 pm



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I gotta say i find it a bit strange when people claim to be ROBOCOP fans when they seem to hate everything after RoboCop1.
Sure Robo2 is flawed but calling it "shit" as many people do is going a little to far. 

Personally i think the visual look and the colors of RoboCop2 is stunning, which includes the suit which is my favorite version. But story wise, yes, it's a mess.

From what the fans have found out and learned threw the years, the production of robo2 was complicated, and all that was in the script didn't really end up on the screen. Many, many  of the more emotional scenes was cut in favor of making a more action oriented movie.

I agree that calling it shit would be going too far.  it's a decent sequel at best.  But as you you don't see how fans of RoboCop can be fans if they hate everything after 1.  But I feel the total opposite, how can Robo fans claim to be fans if they love the grade C sequel and atrocious Robo3, and the cheesy PD tv show.

We might have to agree to disagree on this one.


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artuditu

Tue May 15, 2007 3:41 pm



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Yes, the loss of humanity in Murphy character is enormous, after taking out fom the story his wife in the first ten minutes, the only link we have with true Murphy is Lewis, another underused character of the movie, and the moment where Hob is dying and he speaks to him. Very little, near nothing.

It's not easy anyway continuing the humanity story of RoboCop, once he takes back his identity... what more? I think there is no point in trying to recover his life, it's just impossible, a relationship with his family would be frustrating and going nowhere, we know it. So they just made an standard superhero who would fight bad guys endlessly, problem is there isn't anymore that primal instinc against Clarence that makes us hate him and want him an horrible death, as he had, with an explosion of emotions (rage-vengeance-euphoria), in the first movie.

As I said once in a thread I opened, it seems more to me that the second film was more an EGO fight between Robo and Cain... very different from the motivations of the first film.

But you know, I think it's not just Verhoeven abscence, I've arrived to the conclusion that films like Basic Instinct, Starship Troopers (which I like very much), Flesh+Blood or Hollow man have an enormous lack of humanity, there is cynism everywhere, specially in the main characters. Of course there is cynism in Robo movie, i.e. Bob Morton is a "bad good guy". But for me RoboCop is an exception in Verhoeven filmography in the sense that that film is the only one I've seen of Verhoeven where he touches so strongly the humanity of a main character.


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Mindchamber

Tue May 15, 2007 3:57 pm



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Robocop2 is equivilant  Spiderman3..  its Pretty, its a mess storywise, and it was a dissapointment.


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Nika Silwerra

Tue May 15, 2007 6:55 pm



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But as you you don't see how fans of RoboCop can be fans if they hate everything after 1.

one my friend loves jst the R2 and why ?! he is 18 year old .. but when told the sentece " Robocop 2 is better as R1 " he had just 15 years .. ! Very easy younger folks just love films with many action scenes as the Robocop 2 has ! Yeah if you are a 15 years old you dont need an emotion scenes you need just the action ! So I think R2 was made just for this age category and it is really pity !

btw very good oppinions boys . really nice read  it !


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Kevlar Antelope

Tue May 15, 2007 9:14 pm



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I mean everyone likes action, especially guys...But even at 15 I wanted some emotional content in my movies...saying all 15 year olds like all mindless action is like saying like all guys love football and drink.


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ibuybug

Tue May 15, 2007 10:37 pm



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When I first saw R2 I thought it was better than the first. I was a teenager with passion to simple action movies. Later on when I grew up I began to understand what the movies were really about. At that point I realized the superiority of the first Robocop as a movie. To me the other two are just movies with Robocop starring.

I think it's OK not to like the sequels. But if one doesn't even like the first movie then this forum is probably not for him/her. Discussion is always welcome.


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artuditu

Tue May 15, 2007 10:40 pm



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Well, it seems we all liked much more R2 when we were kids.

I personally wasn't sure if R2 was better than R1, I though it was cooler, but in someway I knew R1 was more authentic and a better movie.


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Josh

Tue May 15, 2007 11:20 pm



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I think s a case of 'we camake a sequel from a scessf film and yone will go to see it'.

It's a bit early in the week for the booze isn't it? :huhwhat:

http://www.robocoparchive.com/board/shop/images/booze.gif

Sorry about that. 

Using the PS3, if you nudge the mouse it messes up and misses out letters...


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Kevlar Antelope

Wed May 16, 2007 2:31 am



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Well, it seems we all liked much more R2 when we were kids.

I personally wasn't sure that R2 was better than R1, I though it was cooler, but in someway I knew R1 was more authentic and a better movie.

I think it may have been in part with the cool cyber villain Cain aka RoboCop 2, were in Robo 1 we basically get a little ED209 and Clarience.  I think i as  a child thought robo cain was cool...now not so much.


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* * * * *

Wed May 16, 2007 9:08 am



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 Yeah if you are a 15 years old you dont need an emotion scenes you need just the action !

 :oops: I enjoyed RoboCop 2 the first time I watched it (Admittingly that has only been once) I did enjoy the action scenes (as any 15 year old would) but what really made me fall in love with RoboCop is the fact he is human "I can remember them but I can't feel them", Correct me if i'm wrong (i probaly am having only seen it once in feburary) but after RoboCop brushed off his ex-wife he was Dissasembled by Cain and then reprogrammed with all them Prime Directives. While more emotion scenes would have been what the real fans wanted it would be kind of hard to put them in there (I reckon it would have just as good if not greater than RoboCop if the original script had been made rather than the "action" one though- I'm in agreement there


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DJR2096

Wed May 16, 2007 10:48 am



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I mean everyone likes action, especially guys...But even at 15 I wanted some emotional content in my movies...saying all 15 year olds like all mindless action is like saying like all guys love football and drink.

I don't drink or like football
But I thought robocoip 2 was good for the action like many of you.
It is however not a pach on R1.
It's a too much going on kinda film.


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RoboHell

Wed May 16, 2007 12:57 pm



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I love football and i drink a lot, and my favorite part of Robocop is the emotional drama. A man who was butchered to death with shotguns then brought back to life as a machine, then has to deal with the memories of the family he once had is really powerfull....even to a beer chugging Dallas Cowboy fan like myself.
Go Cowboys!!!!!  :D


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Kevlar Antelope

Wed May 16, 2007 2:21 pm



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 Yeah if you are a 15 years old you dont need an emotion scenes you need just the action !

 :oops: I enjoyed RoboCop 2 the first time I watched it (Admittingly that has only been once) I did enjoy the action scenes (as any 15 year old would) but what really made me fall in love with RoboCop is the fact he is human "I can remember them but I can't feel them", Correct me if i'm wrong (i probaly am having only seen it once in feburary) but after RoboCop brushed off his ex-wife he was Dissasembled by Cain and then reprogrammed with all them Prime Directives. While more emotion scenes would have been what the real fans wanted it would be kind of hard to put them in there (I reckon it would have just as good if not greater than RoboCop if the original script had been made rather than the "action" one though- I'm in agreement there

I was want to correct that he said "I can't remember them, but I can feel them."


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Nika Silwerra

Wed May 16, 2007 8:31 pm



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I mean everyone likes action, especially guys...But even at 15 I wanted some emotional content in my movies...saying all 15 year olds like all mindless action is like saying like all guys love football and drink.

I don't drink or like football
But I thought robocoip 2 was good for the action like many of you.
It is however not a pach on R1.
It's a too much going on kinda film.

of course every one loves action and heh especially boys ! Of course also I wanted to see more "emotions" in the scenes when I was 15 .. but many guys what I knew in the time and they was 15 or less years old wanted rather action as emotions .. and of course I not say that all boy are wants  the same ! :wink: 

hah I am not a boy but I like ice hockey   :mrgreen: ( when already is here a talking about some sports !)

Robocop 2 was not bad film .. but I waited here more infos about his family       oki in beginning of the film there was one nice scene but also last in whole film  ! ( Interesing when I was read the book by ED Naha what was written according the R2 script , there was many emotional scenes ..) Damn why they deleted it with the film ?! 

Irvin Keishner was not any beginner between directors .. He could make also better thing ! Or he had to finished the film because he had little time .. 

Hey and what about the ED 209 ?! So typical Robocop enemy ! They could use to the story also this "amazing chicken "
  :)


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RoboKasper

Thu May 17, 2007 12:42 am



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Well, I think that Robocop 2 had just enough emotions to my liking. I mean, in Robocop 1, you had all the emotions and difficulties that comes from the transformation from a human to a cyborg, and in Robocop 2 you get a taste of how his wife has dealt with Murphys death, but still, you were left hungering for more, the only thing that spoiled the whole "plot" in my opinion was Robocop 3, you had all the possibilities to continue a great story, but instead you ended up with an unimportant and meaningless story in the third film, that didn't really "complete" the story.

Just my 2 cents ;)


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CAIN MKII

Thu May 17, 2007 3:12 am



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I enjoyed R2 the first time I saw it back then and today it's still my favourite episode from the trilogy.
I guess CAIN design and stopmo sequences have something to do about it.
Like Archive, the robocop suit colour in this movie is my favourite, very stylish, just like a custom painted car.
Definetly one of my favourite action/SF movie.


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Kevlar Antelope

Thu May 17, 2007 3:51 am



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I dunno, I wanted more humanity and depth to Robo2.  It seemed that hollywood was always cheapening the story and elements...and Robo3 was just a natural progression to how they ruined the series as a whole.  RoboCop is a cult classic and grade A sci-fi film.  RoboCop 2 is a decent bu flawed follow up that could have been MUCH better.  RoboCop 3 was an embarrasment and shows the dollar has more power than fans.


The blue/purple robo2 suit, felt, look, and acted too much like plastic.  it didn't seem to have the cold metallic feel as the first.    It looked like plastic and was plastic...

He the sound effects for his suit in Robo2 weren't as deep and heavy as robo 1.


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DJR2096

Thu May 17, 2007 7:00 am



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I know one thing for sure, We need a special edition of Robocop 2!


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Josh

Thu May 17, 2007 8:40 am



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How about ED with emotions...

"I'm so depressed cause I can't use chopsticks"


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* * * * *

Thu May 17, 2007 9:41 am



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I was want to correct that he said "I can't remember them, but I can feel them."

Oh, My mistake i knew it was one or the other......


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Nika Silwerra

Thu May 17, 2007 10:23 am



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RoboCop 3 was an embarrasment and shows the dollar has more power than fans. 

I still think about for what age limit was made the R3 -- While the R1 and also R2 are very bloody films , in the R3 is the Robocop a little "tame" and except the punkers in beginning and two rehab boys + one "artificial ninja" he doest not killed any person .. where is the blood from the first two films ?! In R3 miss a really cool crazy shooting as we saw in the R1 in the warehouse or in R2 in the factory !

 so at the end .. R3 looks as film for 17 or less old persons ! :wink:


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Kevlar Antelope

Thu May 17, 2007 1:11 pm



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RoboCop 3 was an embarrasment and shows the dollar has more power than fans. 

I still think about for what age limit was made the R3 -- While the R1 and also R2 are very bloody films , in the R3 is the Robocop a little "tame" and except the punkers in beginning and two rehab boys + one "artificial ninja" he doest not killed any person .. where is the blood from the first two films ?! In R3 miss a really cool crazy shooting as we saw in the R1 in the warehouse or in R2 in the factory !

 so at the end .. R3 looks as film for 17 or less old persons ! :wink:

Yep which is why the almighty dollar won.  They think if they make something more accessible for childern and families that it will do well, since the 1st film was far "too violent"  But that violence, dark humor, and satire is what helped make the 1st Robo so successful.  When you start to dumb it down for Robo2 and completely abadon what made the series so popular in the 3rd film...I don't see how they expected the films to do well, honestly.


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Archive

Thu May 17, 2007 4:20 pm



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and completely abandon what made the series so popular in the 3rd film...I don't see how they expected the films to do well, honestly.

There is a funny quote about that from one of the co-producers of RoboCop3:


"We have targeted a wider audience, we find that children relate to RoboCop so, we’ve made him more accessible to children, and toned down the violence."

HURRAY!!!!   


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RoboHell

Thu May 17, 2007 5:14 pm



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JANE BARTELME (co-producer RoboCop3) : 

"We have targeted a wider audience, we find that children relate to RoboCop so, we’ve made him more accessible to children, and toned down the violence." 


How in the hell do children relate to a cop that gets blown to bits, and comes back to life as a robot??
If there is a kid out there that can relate to that, then that's the day i'll become ninja cyborg.


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RoboKasper

Thu May 17, 2007 6:15 pm



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JANE BARTELME (co-producer RoboCop3) : 

"We have targeted a wider audience, we find that children relate to RoboCop so, we’ve made him more accessible to children, and toned down the violence." 


How in the hell do children relate to a cop that gets blown to bits, and comes back to life as robot??
If there is a kid out there that can relate to that,
then that's the day i'll become ninja cyborg.

Then I would start figuring out how to become a ninja cyborg right now. Because i became a Robo-fan when i was about 10 years old ;)


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Kevlar Antelope

Thu May 17, 2007 6:22 pm



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and completely abandon what made the series so popular in the 3rd film...I don't see how they expected the films to do well, honestly.

There is a funny quote about that from one of the co-producers of RoboCop3:


"We have targeted a wider audience, we find that children relate to RoboCop so, we’ve made him more accessible to children, and toned down the violence."

HURRAY!!!!   

That quote proves you don't have to be smart to be in hollywood.  But to be successful you need to be smart, RoboCop3 proved that fact.  If they would have keep the Robo sequels darker, more violent, and kept his humanity at the same time.  It would have went down in history as an amazing anc classic sci-fi trilogy.  Instead only first film did, which spawned a decent sequel and a not even televsion worthy third film.

Children do not relate to Robo, they just think he's cool.  They don't care much about his family or his humanity when they are young.  They see a cool looking robot guy in a shiny metal suit with a big gun and think it's cool.  I watched the first film at the age of 3 or 4...and I turned out fine.  

Word to the wise:  Cater to the fans and the demographic that is most interested in the franchise not to who could be a fan but forget the real fans and have the so called new "target" audience think it's crap.  They pleased no one with Robo 3 and ended up producing:

a joke.


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Archive

Thu May 17, 2007 6:30 pm



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I recommend anyone that hasn't visited the "Comments and Quotes" section on the site to take a look. It contains many interesting comments from the actors, directors and others. ( The Robo2 comments are surprisingly revealing. )

RoboCop 2:
http://robocoparchive.com/archive/comments-robocop2.htm

RoboCop 3:
http://robocoparchive.com/archive/comments-robocop3.htm


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RoboHell

Thu May 17, 2007 7:16 pm



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JANE BARTELME (co-producer RoboCop3) : 

"We have targeted a wider audience, we find that children relate to RoboCop so, we’ve made him more accessible to children, and toned down the violence." 


How in the hell do children relate to a cop that gets blown to bits, and comes back to life as robot??
If there is a kid out there that can relate to that,
then that's the day i'll become ninja cyborg.

Then I would start figuring out how to become a ninja cyborg right now. Because i became a Robo-fan when i was about 10 years old ;)

Yeah i was 8 year's old when i became a Robo-fan to, but i didn't sit there and think "Wow i can really relate to Alex Murphy, cause he really reminds me of..........me!!!"
I got hooked cause bad guy's were getting shot in the nuts and melting in acid, it wasn't untill years later (15 or 16) 
years old that i finally understood how much emotion this movie and character really had. If anyone can relate to dying then being brought back to life in the form of a machine, they can have my first born. :b


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Kevlar Antelope

Thu May 17, 2007 7:39 pm



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MR. VERHOEVEN said it best:

"None of the sequels seem to have understood what we were doing in the first place. Most sequels are made to cash in."

Exactly.


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CAIN MKII

Thu May 17, 2007 8:40 pm



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I became a robocop fan at 17 after viewing R1. I didn't know anything about the movie before I discovered it in theater.
Ultra violent, ultra funny and some god damn looking robots.
A great movie mixing everything I loved. Simply the best out of the 3. But somehow I do enjoy R2 better.
It's just more fun: action packed + amazing FX.
Man that would have been a really good movie if they just followed frank Miller's scenario.
I do find very interesting how robocop deals with his feelings about his former life. It would have been nice to witness the evolution of a deshumanised cop cyborg.
Would he comitte suicide or keep going because of his strong sense of duty?


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Nika Silwerra

Thu May 17, 2007 8:55 pm



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"We have targeted a wider audience, we find that children relate to RoboCop so, we’ve made him more accessible to children, and toned down the violence."

ouu my god also the Robocop animated series from 1994 is more action as the Robocop 3 and hey what the woman wants there ?If she wanted to do something for childs she could to work for making another part for Bethowen or Home alone and no spoil the good Robocop character ! They would have get a punishment for the bad film !

ahh and I think also a 12 years old kids know that the R3 is not any amazing film .. heh so they made the film for 8 and less :mrgreen: 

Yeah i was 8 year's old when i became a Robo-fan to,
but i didn't sit there and think
"Wow i can really relate to Alex Murphy,
cause he really reminds me of..........me!!!" 

me got the R1 when was 10 or 11 years old  ( ou and it I am a girl) :mrgreen: when I had 12 years of course I wanted to see also the last 3 part . So brother brought also the R3 on an original VHS .. oki I with a great expectation watched it .. but in the end I really said myself " hey here was something wrong " and it I was just little girl ..  if  the first time watched just the R3 , now I would certainly was not member of this board ! :wink:


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David

Thu May 17, 2007 11:30 pm



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Robocop 2's biggest flaw was in fact Robocop 3. I don't think it was ever meant to be a movie on it's own. I think it was always created with the intention of being a middle part of a trilogy. So, there were ideas and themes that were brought up that were intentionally not resolved. Because, they were supposed to be resolved in Robocop 3. Robocop 3, of course, really dropped the ball. But, if it had been a better movie and actually delved into the issues started in Robocop 2, I think a lot of people would have a lot more appreciation for Robocop 2.

Still, I wish a lot of the cut scenes had made it into the movie.


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RoboKasper

Sat May 19, 2007 12:35 pm



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Robocop 2's biggest flaw was in fact Robocop 3. I don't think it was ever meant to be a movie on it's own. I think it was always created with the intention of being a middle part of a trilogy. So, there were ideas and themes that were brought up that were intentionally not resolved. Because, they were supposed to be resolved in Robocop 3. Robocop 3, of course, really dropped the ball. But, if it had been a better movie and actually delved into the issues started in Robocop 2, I think a lot of people would have a lot more appreciation for Robocop 2.

Still, I wish a lot of the cut scenes had made it into the movie.

Precisely, I mean, Robocop 3 had some good ideas, like Robocop turning totally againt OCP and the jetpack, man I loved the jetpack-idea. But the whole thing about turning violence down a notch, that's real bummer and I hated ninja thing.. Why couldn't they make an evil kickass robot/cyborg, not a ninja... JESUS!!!


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DJR2096

Sat May 19, 2007 4:13 pm



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Robocop 3 just did not work. I hated the fligh pack. God that was a bad move!!!


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SithLrd0498

Sat May 19, 2007 7:25 pm



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Robocop 3 just did not work. I hated the fligh pack. God that was a bad move!!!

I liked the flight pack concept, but the movie was so cartoonish by that point that the flight pack became just another over-the-top element.  Granted, it would've always been over-the-top to a degree, but I think it would've worked better if the story and tone had treated it more realistically and seriously.

Think about the concept of Batman and then compare the 1960s TV show with "Batman Begins"

Same concept, much different outcomes.


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Josh

Sat May 19, 2007 10:35 pm



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I hated the flight pack. To me, it was an attempt to 'super hero ' Robo up and make him cooler for the kids. 

And thats it. They wanted Robo 3 to appeal to kids so they could rake in more money, which they didnt anyway...


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DJR2096

Sat May 19, 2007 10:53 pm



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I hated the flight pack. To me, it was an attempt to 'super hero ' Robo up and make him cooler for the kids. 

And thats it. They wanted Robo 3 to appeal to kids so they could rake in more money, which they didnt anyway...

I wish I had  wrote that Duck. Very well said indeed!!


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Josh

Sat May 19, 2007 10:54 pm



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Probably the smartest thing I have wrote all year...


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Nika Silwerra

Sun May 20, 2007 10:37 am



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I think it would've worked better if the story and tone had treated it more realistically and seriously. 

yes agree .. But I have the impresion that every third part of whatever film is too re-technized , they have not too good  story so they add the many new weapons and new things what doest not looks too good becuase miss the most important thing and it is the good story.. :roll: 

and about the flight pack . The Robocop is here what belong rather to the Ford Taurus and on the streets as on the  sky  :wink:


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RoboKasper

Sun May 20, 2007 12:11 pm



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I hated the flight pack. To me, it was an attempt to 'super hero ' Robo up and make him cooler for the kids.

I think you're being to harsh on the Jet pack, I think it's a natural development for Robocop, I mean, he's been around for a couple of years and of course you'll try to develop your product.

But unfortunately Robocop 3, as the crappy film it were, didn't manage to make the Jet pack thing work  :?


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Josh

Sun May 20, 2007 2:37 pm



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Trust me, I think I'm being reasonable. 

I think it looked crap. Look at some kids super heroes and you will see they have crappy modes of transport or stuff like jetpacks...


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DJR2096

Sun May 20, 2007 3:43 pm



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Trust me, I think I'm being reasonable. 

I think it looked crap. Look at some kids super heroes and you will see they have crappy modes of transport or stuff like jetpacks...

again, very well said Duck.
The flight pack was just tacky!


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Nika Silwerra

Sun May 20, 2007 6:00 pm



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yeah Duck you are right .. but the Flight pack with  gun arm are the most interesting thing in the film ( unfortunately ) :wink: 

btw I cannot help myself but I always thought that the idea with the androit Ninjas in R3 is from the Terminator  :roll: ( or this is just my impresion ?)


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DJR2096

Sun May 20, 2007 6:15 pm



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Could well have been Nika. You might be right.


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Josh

Sun May 20, 2007 9:37 pm



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I think they had 'inspiration' from the Terminator.

I kind of liked the Ninjas, they showed how advanced from Robo they were in terms of agility and look, maybe an idea for a good cop cause it looks human. The only bad thing was they were produced in possibly limited number so were not as strong as Robo...


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NukeLord

Wed May 23, 2007 11:54 pm



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RoboCop 3 did kill the franchise.  Many film series have had lesser sequels only to be redeemed by a strong 3rd film.  As people have said (and personally I enjoy '2'), it was 'lightweight' on the humanity/storyline side of things.  In retrospect '2', could've quite easily became a great, respected Sci-Fi/Action movie 'bridge' between two classic movies.  Unfortunately this never happened.

It really was the nail in the coffin.  T1 and T2 were two massive movies.  Can you imagine a RoboCop 3 with the ethics and humanity of T2?  A cyborg Alex Murphy, post RoboCop 2, after years as an OCP slave, fighting for humanity against OCP...with a believable John Connor style support teaching Murphy to be human again...  It's all about execution....take T2...replace SkyNet with OCP.....replace Niko with John Connor....replace watered down R3 Lewis with Sarah Connor... and give it that all adult, serious, ethic tone and that is what R3 should've....could've been.  

It only takes a poor sequel to take the momentum and steam out of a franchise....which is why Hollywood are evidently taking much more consideration and time over what they release as part of a franchise these days.  I mean you still get poor mainstream sequels, but the days of dramatically SHIT (and I mean REALLY shit) sequels are few and far between.


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Fiwhiz

Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:35 pm



-----------------------------------

I Love Robocop 2 Its Diffrent yes thats what makes it Great. There is More better Movie Than Robocop 1 but everyone tends to bash part 2. Yes I Hate Robocop 3 even as a Child I hated it .. Some aspects where good Fred did not have a choice but to make it kid friendly.. Even as a kid it was to soft of a movie should be rated G by todays movies LOL

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll151/Fiwhiz/85416e864ed1ca9703616a8f4d659e95.jpg


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Kevlar Antelope

Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:48 am



-----------------------------------

I need to resurrect this topic as I've been thinking about the film again recently looking for robo images to draw up.  I think that the film is lacking MR. VERHOEVEN hurt it tremendously.  He brought a sort of social satire to the first that was both critical and savvy.  

But I think if you made the kid villain maybe a young twenty-something year old, and put more emotional content back into the film in terms of Murphy trying to deal with being a cyborg or OCP property.  

The first film was Robo being born, adjusting to being what he was, and getting revenge on those who took everything from him.  To me it only made sense to have the sequel having Murphy have this duality about being part man and part machine and trying to rediscover himself and his past.   That right there could be the main theme and backbone to the storyline, they should have build the meat of the film around that structure.  The idea of him being obsolete and too human was a good idea but was not executed well.  

That would in term leave the third film with Murphy coming to terms with himself and his new life and accepting that he could in fact both be Robo and Alex J. Murphy.  


But of course the great "could have beens"  are thrown out for cheesy mindless hollywood action flicks.


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NOF

Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:00 pm



-----------------------------------

Robocop 2 is a difficult film for me to not only watch, but even think about. It's because I find myself depressed and frustrated afterwards. What could have been a Godfather II became a combination of Requiem for a Dream and Police Academy VII. 

A lot has been said about the level of nastiness and brutality, making it less enjoyable than the original. The issues I have with that is:

* on one hand, it's simply a natural progression from the original i.e no cops equals more crime. I have no problem with that on an artistic level, as it does feel like you're watching something set in the depths of hell.

* On the other hand, I feel it would be best suited to an art film and not necessarily a mainstream action/adventure (categorisation is purely for convenience purposes).

Robocop himself is the main problem I have with the film. It's for the simple fact that he is pissed on repeatedly, then kicked in the teeth. And there's never a satisfactory moment where you feel the bad guys get their comeupance. For me personally, the dismantling scene is far more hurtful and difficult to watch than Murphy getting shot. What that says about me, I'd rather not speculate! :lol: I think I find it distressing because it's like history repeating itself.

So whenever he goes after the gang again, he simply shoots a few nondescript shooters and involves himself in a rather ludicrous run in with Cain. Instead of simply opening the door, grabbing him by the neck, shouting 'You're finished you bastard', throwing him out of the truck and reversing over him repeatedly, we get a rather tedious moment of Robo hurling himself through the glass. Not exactly fulfilling, (if that's the correct term) is it?

Exact same scenario with Hob (the whole forgiveness angle I was deeply insulted by) and Dr. Faxx (although how this would be solved I have no suggestions).

Another bone of contention is the angle with the family. Undoubtedly heart rendering, but to be honest the only real satisfactory angle would be Robo trying his best to come to terms with his decision throughout the film. At the end, he would reach some peace of mind, knowing he had saved her more stress (I always found the family an awkward one, and I hated the treatments melted out on the subject in THE SERIES and PD). I was incredibly depressed when I read how it took place in the comic 'Frank Miller's Robocop'. Another example of Robo getting pissed on. I'm glad that definetly didn't make it into the film.

It's hard to compare this version of Robo with the arse kicking, heart rendering, take no shit version from the original. He's never really given the chance to get his hands dirty until smashing up Cain's brain. By that point, the average viewer switched off long ago.


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RoboPimp

Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:34 am



-----------------------------------

 And there's never a satisfactory moment where you feel the bad guys get their comeupance.

I thought Robo bashing Cain's brain was pretty satisfying.

But this wasn't Robo 1. This wasn't a revenge tale. This was the story of a cop doing his job. His enemies changed. They had their own demons to battle. I mean, look who he was facing. A drug lord, a child, and a woman fueled simply by her drug addiction. Cain was given power but destroyed in a battle I found both epic and satisfying. But as for the other two, did they really deserve brutal slaughtering? Hob gets shot atop a pile of money, full of ironic symbolism and we see him for the fist time as truly a child, not capable of understanding the scope of his actions and feeling regret. And we feel for him. Angie on the other hand meets the fate she deserves, killed by Cain for being betraying him (sort of). But the thing is these people have made bad choices and get killed because of it, not simply because they are blown away by Robocop. 

Overall the film doesn't close as satisfactory as Robocop 1, and really it's not nearly as good of a film. But it does achieve a different type of ending. It's bittersweet, we see that OCP's corruption will continue, and Robocop knows that he hasn't saved the world. Then he says "We're only human" which I feel adds a lot to the power of the film, reeling in the scope and making Robocop more of just a cop that is stronger then some unflawed superhero. These themes could have led well into a sequel that built upon these themes, and then as such Robocop 2 would have been seen as a strong film in a strong trilogy. But then Robocop 3 came, and went the entirely opposite direction that Robocop 2 was taking things, and as such R2 feels like an incomplete thought.


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SiR-ROUND

Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:48 am



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It's got Cain, what's not to like?


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protozoan

Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:26 pm



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i'll tell you what really happened with robocop 2, it was a kickass classic action sci-fi sequel and then people happened. with all their little issues and being unable to enjoy things without them being explained to them. robocop 2 rocks goddamit. and i'm gonna keep saying it to the nay-sayers calling themselves robocop fans, pfft.


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DoktorNo

Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:50 pm



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I said this before: R#2 is the best sequel. It works well as potent "middle-in-the-road" movie in trilogy (a potential wasted by stupid R#3). Frank Miller's script was unfilmmable, and thanks God it was reworked.


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protozoan

Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:23 am



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I said this before: R#2 is the best sequel. It works well as potent "middle-in-the-road" movie in trilogy (a potential wasted by stupid R#3). Frank Miller's script was unfilmmable, and thanks God it was reworked.

exactly.


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Stan The Man

Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:27 pm



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i'll tell you what really happened with robocop 2, it was a kickass classic action sci-fi sequel and then people happened. with all their little issues and being unable to enjoy things without them being explained to them. robocop 2 rocks goddamit. and i'm gonna keep saying it to the nay-sayers calling themselves robocop fans, pfft.

Yeah, I know where you're coming from. Some things in life really call for a 'No Peopling Allowed' sign. :roll: 

Hey, I gots no beef with that, myself. And it's true. R2 is a dark comic-book style action sequel. You're wasting your time if you're looking for anything else.

Or, well, you are if you're just some schmuck.

If you're a real Robo fan, you debate it FOREVER! :b

EDIT - Reading back through this topic, I noticed the page with the Robo2 comments is titled 'RoboCop COMICS INDEX', heheh.

I'm always determined to make Archive work more. :mrgreen:


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themon84

Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:23 am



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anybody seen monster squad, the guy who plays kane, plays frankenstein's monster.

I have the dvd and everybody who were kids then said that he stayed in character at all times as the monster. i think that kane is who this guy is, a drugged out weirdo

I said this before: R#2 is the best sequel. It works well as potent "middle-in-the-road" movie in trilogy (a potential wasted by stupid R#3). Frank Miller's script was unfilmmable, and thanks God it was reworked.


and why don't you take a look at the credits of robocop 2 and see who wrote and did the screenplay.


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RoboHell

Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:05 pm



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I think you missed what the Doc was trying to say that Millers orginal script was unfilmable, and that having it reworked was the right move.


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themon84

Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:45 pm



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there wasn['t alot changed except that robo 2 and 3 were both one movie and the girl who designed the kane robot overtook it herself


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Stan The Man

Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:38 am



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anybody seen monster squad, the guy who plays kane, plays frankenstein's monster.

Yeah, Tom Noonan (Cain) has played a lot of sicko/wacko roles. He was also 'The Ripper' in Last Action Hero. :wink:

there wasn

Uh, I haven't even fully read the Frank Miller RoboCop comic (which has most, but not quite all of the original script in it) and there was quite a lot that was changed, and mostly for the better. Seriously, the story that was portrayed in the comic was insane, and as Hell said, wouldn't have been practical to film.


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themon84

Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:13 am



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stan i own the comics, they are not that different from the last 2 movies, the main storyline, that is, except that the climax of robo 2 would have been that of 3, therefore the ninja bullshit wasn't in there.

yep last action, forgot about that one, and that's sad  because i have it

I still love all movies and all things robo though


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protozoan

Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:42 am



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anybody seen monster squad, the guy who plays kane, plays frankenstein's monster.

Yeah, Tom Noonan (Cain) has played a lot of sicko/wacko roles. He was also 'The Ripper' in Last Action Hero. :wink:

there wasn

Uh, I haven't even fully read the Frank Miller RoboCop comic (which has most, but not quite all of the original script in it) and there was quite a lot that was changed, and mostly for the better. Seriously, the story that was portrayed in the comic was insane, and as Hell said, wouldn't have been practical to film.

tom noonan was also the psycho in manhunter and he played a child molester in an episode of x-files. creepy as fuck that guy.


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Robowreck

Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:58 am



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just watched robocop 2 after not seeing it for a long time, my favorite part of the movies isnt the story, or the lack of emotional scenes, its just robo moving, talking, walking, aiming and blowing away bad guys without even looking in their direction.  Love how he looks to the left and swings his gun to the right and buddudud, down goes a badguy who didnt know it was comin!! ahhahhah i love robocop!!!   All the sweet shootouts between robo and the multitude of nuke crazed gunmen he blows away in perfect robo style are what made that film...o and i like when he read the dead baseball coach his rights....hhahha


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KidGoesWild

Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:05 am



-----------------------------------

R2 follows the formula of the first movie closely. We get the over the top gore, language and violence, the ridiculous commercials and the exploration of Robo's character, yet it still stands as a movie on its own and not a copy if the original. All that plus all the characters from the first movie like "Old man", Johnson and naturally, officer Anne Lewis. I like How Irvin Kershner explored the character even more, and actually showed us the meeting between Robo and Murphy's wife. And of course, Peter Weller again gave a great performance

I see R2 is dimmed as mindless action flick here, and its anything but. An even wider ground is explored here. The idea of a juvenile killer alone raised many eyebrows at the time. The characters are very well developed: if you think about it, their actions and addictions was what largely contributed to their demise. R2 is much more gory than the first one and the villains are much more cruel because theyre completely insane. Live operations? *shrugs*. Voodoo whackos?

His internal struggle is also explored as I previously said. He meets his wife, hes spying on her. Theres an obvious emotional conflict there. I disagree with what some said about Robo just shrugging it off after the meeting. i thought the message was pretty clear: he decided that for her best he should let go of her. Besides, theres only so much you can fit into the movie, and the plot needed to progress. The original already told the story of his emotional struggles, R2 continued it and tied the knot very nicely  in a very nice place

As for the Old man being a bad guy this time, I never thought of him as a good or even neutral person anyway.In the first movie he completely shrugs off Kinney's death and thinks only about the business side. He's untouched by death and violence. I always thought of him as a very cold and cruel person. Its not like he suggested wiping out the mayor, it was suggested TO him and the steak was the OCP itself - shares falling etc, the complete fall.

I also loved the steel blue armor, looked very powerful

As for the music, its done in a very classical way. Its sounds a lot like the classic 1930s scores and even has some elements of John Williams

Im not gonna be comparing it to the original because I love both and dont see a need to create a competition "within the family". R2 is phenomenal in its own light

PS: The Kid Goes Wild rocks


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DoktorNo

Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:01 am



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I also loved the steel blue armor, looked very powerful


Blue color is usually associated with the police; in R#1 Robo was a prototype on trial, in sequel he is just on duty. Hence the change of color, from steel silver to blue, is logical.


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KidGoesWild

Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:06 pm



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I also loved the steel blue armor, looked very powerful


Blue color is usually associated with the police; in R#1 Robo was a prototype on trial, in sequel he is just on duty. Hence the change of color, from steel silver to blue, is logical.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Im usually not pressing so much for logic, if it works for the movie. I loved the blue armor, it looked like stainless steel. Also very much in line with the feel of the movie - the cold cruelty, while the silvery iron-looking armor in the first one worked for the bleak and saturated colors and feel of the first one


-----------------------------------

Stan The Man

Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:41 pm



-----------------------------------

R2 follows the formula of the first movie closely. We get the over the top gore, language and violence, the ridiculous commercials and the exploration of Robo's character, yet it still stands as a movie on its own and not a copy if the original. All that plus all the characters from the first movie like "Old man", Johnson and naturally, officer Anne Lewis. I like How Irvin Kershner explored the character even more, and actually showed us the meeting between Robo and Murphy's wife. And of course, Peter Weller again gave a great performance

Good points, but being a continuation, I can't help but note that while it did follow the first film's formula, that's just about all it did - it mostly disconnected from the original. I don't really feel this movie explored Murphy all that much, myself. He was all bad-ass RoboCop, roaming about on his own, being just like a robot, acting like he did when he first appeared in the first film - much different than the Murphy that more-or-less found himself again by the end of the first movie. Though Lewis was indeed there, her role was greatly diminished and was little more than a bit part.

His internal struggle is also explored as I previously said. He meets his wife, hes spying on her. Theres an obvious emotional conflict there. I disagree with what some said about Robo just shrugging it off after the meeting. i thought the message was pretty clear: he decided that for her best he should let go of her. Besides, theres only so much you can fit into the movie, and the plot needed to progress. The original already told the story of his emotional struggles, R2 continued it and tied the knot very nicely  in a very nice place

I gotta disagree there - The meeting with Murphy's wife didn't really do anything, they just showed it and it just left off there - it just didn't make sense to have that sequence in the film. It didn't add anything to the rest of the movie, and I don't think it brought proper closure. 

Saying they chumped the scene to get on with rest of the movie is a statement that supports the idea of R2 being a dumb comic-book action flick - dumbing the emotional scenes and character development and backgrounds for making bad-ass gun-fights and action sequences. And I don't necessarily think that mindset made R2 a better movie.

To add to my point - There was great consideration of removing the whole 'Home' sequence from the original movie for that same reason - There's no action, no robots, and it's not directly relevant to the main story. Would R1 have been better without the 'Home' part? Shit no. Whereas the 'Home' sequence being in the film is one of the big things that made RoboCop stand out as a movie. 

Again, if what they were trying for was a more action-oriented film, then I ask what was the point of bringing that element up again, especially if they were gonna leave it hanging like they did?

Im not gonna be comparing it to the original because I love both and dont see a need to create a competition "within the family". R2 is phenomenal in its own light

My thought is it's hard not to compare it to the prior, at least on some level, because it's a continuation, moreover a continuation with mostly the same characters, the same setting, nearly the same environment and atmosphere with several similar aspects and plot points. 

You've made a lot of good and detailed points - though, as you've noticed, there are a couple of your thoughts I don't agree with, there are some I do agree with quite well, and I liked how you addressed them.

Anyway, on it's own, RoboCop 2 is a good film. But as a sequel, there are just some things that stick out and bug me. Bah.


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Archive

Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:00 pm



-----------------------------------

acting like he did when he first appeared in the first film - much different than the Murphy that more-or-less found himself again by the end of the first movie. 

Personally i see RoboCop2 as a "Murphy moving on" sequel. Although we remember the first movie ending as a "happy" one the only good thing that happened is that Murphy now remembers who is is. And then what? Should he move back to his wife and son and live happy ever after? Retire and go on a fishing trip? Move to a cottage in the mountains and write a novel? No, Murphy continues being a cop. 

Robo stalking his wife is a sad and powerful scene as he continues to long for the life he knows he can no longer have. When his wife confronts him he decides that the Murphy he once was is dead. 

He moves on.


-----------------------------------

KidGoesWild

Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:07 pm



-----------------------------------

R2 follows the formula of the first movie closely. We get the over the top gore, language and violence, the ridiculous commercials and the exploration of Robo's character, yet it still stands as a movie on its own and not a copy if the original. All that plus all the characters from the first movie like "Old man", Johnson and naturally, officer Anne Lewis. I like How Irvin Kershner explored the character even more, and actually showed us the meeting between Robo and Murphy's wife. And of course, Peter Weller again gave a great performance

Good points, but being a continuation, I can't help but note that while it did follow the first film's formula, that's just about all it did - it mostly disconnected from the original. 

Well, I personally think its a good thing. Im a big James Cameron fan and I believe sequels shouldnt be in the shadwo of the original, but should be a standalone and original movie that at the same time continue the story. R2 is its own animal yet continuing the same story with the same characters, something I surely was thrilled to see

I don't really feel this movie explored Murphy all that much, myself. He was all bad-ass RoboCop, roaming about on his own, being just like a robot, acting like he did when he first appeared in the first film - much different than the Murphy that more-or-less found himself again by the end of the first movie. 

I gotta disagree here completely. I cant even think of one instance when he would act like a robot, aside from when he was reprogrammed. He's all Murphy, and his witty humor and character is ever present ("Dead then", "As good as money can buy", "are we cops!?"). Not to even mention the questioning scene when theres clearly an emotion in his voice and when he chooses very good words to calm her down. Robo-Robocop would say something like "madam you are in emotional shock and psyhcological denial thats natural in post-trauma state. Officer Murphy is deceased". Wanna hear RoboCop totally depraved of Murphy? Check out RObocop 3 - 'Im fine ann, thanks for asking" - acting like he did when he was reprogrammed by OCP, and zero emotion, zero difference in voice range and strenght ("How are you feelin"?-"My efficency rate is 93%", "vehicle approaching"). I always see and hear Murphy in R2, with the only difference being that he more or less accepted he's state

Though Lewis was indeed there, her role was greatly diminished and was little more than a bit part.

Well I dont know. I think she had as much if not more screen time as she did in the first movie. The difference here is that shes not cruciasl to the story and thats why you may get that impression. In the original she was an important link and bridge for Murphy and his "realization", while here shes not the center of the overall story. yet shes still here, as strong and tough and righteous as she was in the original. It was great to see that team again. And shes virtually with Robo almost all the time

His internal struggle is also explored as I previously said. He meets his wife, hes spying on her. Theres an obvious emotional conflict there. I disagree with what some said about Robo just shrugging it off after the meeting. i thought the message was pretty clear: he decided that for her best he should let go of her. Besides, theres only so much you can fit into the movie, and the plot needed to progress. The original already told the story of his emotional struggles, R2 continued it and tied the knot very nicely  in a very nice place

I gotta disagree there - The meeting with Murphy's wife didn't really do anything, they just showed it and it just left off there - it just didn't make sense to have that sequence in the film. It didn't add anything to the rest of the movie, and I don't think it brought proper closure. 

Well I dont know. I always wondered about him meeting his wife. I tohught it was great, he seemed almost as if hes gonna break when they kept telling him that he has nothing to offer her. For her good he told her goodbye and then he was obviously still taken by it. While it wasnt necessary since the first movie already told the emotional side and internal struggle, it was nice to tie a knot completely on that here in the sequel in a strong and emotional way. First hes getting coned and emotionally tortured and then he has to say farewell to his wife. I thought the bits when hes spying on Ellen were great too with some great music as well. Gives the movie a heart

Saying they chumped the scene to get on with rest of the movie is a statement that supports the idea of R2 being a dumb comic-book action flick - dumbing the emotional scenes and character development and backgrounds for making bad-ass gun-fights and action sequences. And I don't necessarily think that mindset made R2 a better movie.


Well i really dont think R2 is a comic book action movie. It doesnt have any elements of comic book story or hero. It touches the worst nightmares of society exploring a lot of new moral ground and presenting a new, even darker and more brutal view on the darkest side of reality. Shows Robo and others making a lot of very complicated moral choices, for the audience as well (like the issue of Hob's death - is the sight of a scared and dying child enough to forgive for what he did? Families working in drug factories with kids - a lot of adult new ground explored here)


Im not gonna be comparing it to the original because I love both and dont see a need to create a competition "within the family". R2 is phenomenal in its own light

My thought is it's hard not to compare it to the prior, at least on some level, because it's a continuation, moreover a continuation with mostly the same characters, the same setting, nearly the same environment and atmosphere with several similar aspects and plot points. 

Yeah, comparison is fine, but I dont think making a competition between them has any real purpose. I love both equally and even thought theyre heavily connected continuations, they have a very different feel and messages. Its apples and oranges, and I like both, Dont want or need to choose when I can have both. Having a great dinner AND a great dessert


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KidGoesWild

Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:15 pm



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acting like he did when he first appeared in the first film - much different than the Murphy that more-or-less found himself again by the end of the first movie. 

Personally i see RoboCop2 as a "Murphy moving on" sequel. Although we remember the first movie ending as a "happy" one the only good thing that happened is that Murphy now remembers who is is. And then what? Should he move back to his wife and son and live happy ever after? Retire and go on a fishing trip? Move to a cottage in the mountains and write a novel? No, Murphy continues being a cop. 

Robo stalking his wife is a sad and powerful scene as he continues to long for the life he knows he can no longer have. When his wife confronts him he decides that the Murphy he once was is dead. 

He moves on.

Thats how I felt too. The movie always leaves me kind of depressed. And thats not to say that theres anything wrong with it or the ending, just the opposite - it leaves you with some strong thoughts and feelings, leaves you wondering about many things. It's really gloomy and underlines the dark reality of the world: cruelty, crime and no real happy ending. The bad guys got killed, but at the end so what? Murphy's situation still didn't change and half of the characters from the movie were dead nonetheless. Whenever the credits show up and Rock Shop starts, I'm more like "wow, poor guy lost everything, now what?" then "yeah, glad things turned out OK". And thats one of the strong points of RoboCop, the story that leaves you with a lot to digest even after the movie


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Archive

Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:21 pm



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The bad guys got killed, but at the end so what? Murphy's situation still didn't change and half of the characters from the movie were dead nonetheless. 

Exactly, and that's the thing about Robo1. It gives a false sense of a happy ending when in reality Robo could have just as well committed suicide right there in the board room. He knows he is Murphy but that doesn't change shit. He isn't even a free man, he's a PRODUCT that belongs to OCP. How happy is that?

So in RoboCop2 Murphy moves on the best way he can. And with that in mind i think we can excuse him if he seems a bit cold and less human. ;)


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Stan The Man

Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:34 am



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Before I go any further, I should note I don't really feel this movie explored Murphy all that much, myself. He was all bad-ass RoboCop, roaming about on his own, being just like a robot, acting like he did when he first appeared in the first film - much different than the Murphy that more-or-less found himself again by the end of the first movie. 

I gotta disagree here completely. I cant even think of one instance when he would act like a robot, aside from when he was reprogrammed. He's all Murphy, and his witty humor and character is ever present ("Dead then", "As good as money can buy", "are we cops!?"). Not to even mention the questioning scene when theres clearly an emotion in his voice and when he chooses very good words to calm her down. 

I always see and hear Murphy in R2, with the only difference being that he more or less accepted he's state

Personally i see RoboCop2 as a "Murphy moving on" sequel.

That's all true, and though I agree with Archive's point about RoboCop 2 showing a RoboCop/Murphy 'moving on' from the first film and continuing his duty, to me, it just doesn't seem right, or at least, it doesn't seem like it's done right in the film.. It just seems like a see-saw, going from a indifferent machine, to finding his true identity and being more 'Murphy', to going back to being indifferent, interspersed with some shadows of Murphy.  There is emotion there, yes, but it never seems that powerful to me. 

R2 doing things that way, in the way it did it, just always put me off.. I never really could put my finger on it. Still, it nags me just a bit more than I'd like. I might think about it some more, especially whenever I get a chance to watch R2 again. Otherwise, I'll just be nagged. :b

Though Lewis was indeed there, her role was greatly diminished and was little more than a bit part.

... The difference here is that shes not crucial to the story and thats why you may get that impression. In the original she was an important link and bridge for Murphy and his "realization", while here shes not the center of the overall story. yet shes still here, as strong and tough and righteous as she was in the original. It was great to see that team again.

That's a good point, but she's a major character, hell, she's RoboCop's partner, and thus her presence should have been more important than it was, if only just a little bit. Her role isn't like that of a major character, however - You could almost replace her character or even remove her entirely without much ill effect. Including her for maybe an extra couple minutes would have made the difference, especially for background development and just a hair of extra emotional strength. The locker-room shower scene shown on the workprint would have helped that just fine, or that aside, maybe an extra couple of scenes with Lewis, which should have some dialogue and interaction with Robo. 

And though she's there, she's not really 'there' with Robo that much. Though she indeed isn't near as important as she was in the first movie, her character didn't have to be downplayed so much to where she's nearly non-existent and irrelevant.

Well I dont know. I always wondered about him meeting his wife. I tohught it was great, he seemed almost as if hes gonna break when they kept telling him that he has nothing to offer her. For her good he told her goodbye and then he was obviously still taken by it. While it wasnt necessary since the first movie already told the emotional side and internal struggle, it was nice to tie a knot completely on that here in the sequel in a strong and emotional way. First hes getting coned and emotionally tortured and then he has to say farewell to his wife. I thought the bits when hes spying on Ellen were great too with some great music as well. Gives the movie a heart

Still, though it is a fairly strong scene, it ends up going nowhere. The scene, though re-showing us that Murphy can again never return to the state he once was, doesn't properly resolve all the issues and doesn't give us anything new. Thus the point remains - Why bother even re-introducing that aspect and not go anywhere with it? You even said it, it wasn't necessary, so again, what was the point of even bringing it up again if all they we're gonna do is drop it, and half-assed at that? 

Point is, RoboCop 2 IS a good film, a great continuation, and for the most part, quite enjoyable. But it's not without it's flaws, and it's flaws have always stuck out more than others in movies for me.


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KidGoesWild

Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:04 am



-----------------------------------



That's all true, and though I agree with Archive's point about RoboCop 2 showing a RoboCop/Murphy 'moving on' from the first film and continuing his duty, to me, it just doesn't seem right, or at least, it doesn't seem like it's done right in the film.. It just seems like a see-saw, going from a indifferent machine, to finding his true identity and being more 'Murphy', to going back to being indifferent, interspersed with some shadows of Murphy.  There is emotion there, yes, but it never seems that powerful to me. 

I like how this site describes the plot of RoboCop in a pill:
In the first Robocop movie Alex Murphy is brutally killed and is retooled into a cyborg to fight crime. But RoboCop begins to uncover the truth about himself and who he really is

The first movie was about him becoming a cyborg, and everything thats related to it: his murderers, the revenge, his family, his internal struggle.

Fred Dekker: The first movie, the Paul Verhoeven movie, is a great movie. But his personal journey is really over at the end of that first movie

R2 was NOT about that. Kershner is a genius, and like Cameron, he knew the sequel has to be a brand new movie that can be as strong as a standalone, and not just be an extension or younger brother of its predecessor. Yet we get Murphy's character nailed, and we still get last traces of his internal pain and struggle and what many wanted to see: his reunion with his wife


And though she's there, she's not really 'there' with Robo that much. Though she indeed isn't near as important as she was in the first movie, her character didn't have to be downplayed so much to where she's nearly non-existent and irrelevant.

I disagree. I think her character is evident and the writers really nailed her personality as well. I think shes really missing in R3 and there shes merely a decoration. Wheres that witty tough bitch Lewis in the third? In R2, shes still there working with her partner just like she did in the second half of the original


Point is, RoboCop 2 IS a good film, a great continuation, and for the most part, quite enjoyable. But it's not without it's flaws, and it's flaws have always stuck out more than others in movies for me.

Like I said, I think its a more than stellar sequel. It comes from the times were sequels were as good or sometimes even better than originals - the late 80s/very early 90s, when Hollywood really delivered twice. Terminator 2, Aliens, Rambo 2, Die hard 2, Mad Max 2, Christmas Vacation and on and on


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Archive

Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:17 am



-----------------------------------

Still, though it is a fairly strong scene, it ends up going nowhere. The scene, though re-showing us that Murphy can again never return to the state he once was, doesn't properly resolve all the issues and doesn't give us anything new. 

I don't know, the scene works as a reminder that Murphy's life is hopeless. And when the scene ends, so does their life together. Murphy decides to finally accept that Murphy is dead. Something that would have been even clearer with the deleted graveyard scene where he goes to say "good-bye" in front of his grave.

That said, i would have liked to see more of that kind of emotional stuff and, as we all know ,the script had A LOT of them, but they never made the final movie.

I'm posting a bit of the script here just as a curiosity:


------------------


INT. ROBOCHAMBER

ROBO sits, helmet off, Turns as LEWIS arrives at the DOORWAY. Carrying a paper BAG. Cautious.

LEWIS
Mind if i have my lunch here?

No response. She sits, pulls a SANDWICH from the BAG

LEWIS
 It had to be very rough. She loved you very much.

They lock eyes.

LEWIS
...I know how she feels.

ROBO'S HAND rises in a FIST. CRASH!--ROBO'S HAND SMASHES the ARMREST to pieces

INT. MOTOR POOL GARAGE

ROBO enters the garage and walks towards a unit. LEWIS is not far behind him.

LEWIS
hey, wait

She catches up as he is getting in.

LEWIS
Murphy, wait. Don't go off like this. Talk to me.

ROBO
Don't call me Murphy. Murphy is dead.

LEWIS is momentarily stunned. ROBO gets into the car, fires it up and speeds away.


-----------------------------------

Stan The Man

Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:24 am



-----------------------------------

^ See, that's what I'm talking about, that alone could have helped better flush out RoboCop's estrangement AND had better inclusion for Lewis as well. I appreciate that you posted that Archive. 

It's always relatively little things like that that make the most difference. You can tell R2 meant to have quite a bit of that stuff in it, even when you watch it now, but it's not there, and well, you just can't help but feel like the movie seems just a bit off and you're always missing something. 

Damn was the production all fucked up with this film. Hey, I can't be too harsh I guess, considering how things went, we ended up with something that was actually pretty good, and certainly could have been a hell of a lot worse.


-----------------------------------

KidGoesWild

Sat Oct 31, 2009 4:31 am



-----------------------------------

I think that car scene would leave too much confusion, especially since hes still called Murphy later on and refers to himself as Murphy when Faxx is toying with him. The graveyard scene would seem like a nice closure to the entire situation, but quite frankly, what we have in the movie was always enough for me. I dont feel like Im missing anything. We understand he did it for her good, plus I always felt that he's still a little depressed and still had it in his mind afterwards, particularly during the club scene. "As good as money can buy". We get that typical Murphy humor, but he still seems down and sad during that scene.

Sometimes we dont need things spelled out for us. For example, I always knew that Lewis survived in the original, despite the fact that the first time ive heard about the deleted scene with her in hospital was over a decade later. It somehow NEVER crossed my mind that she was finished or mortally wounded. Its the same with Murphy's acceptance in R2 for me, it just feels natural for me the way it is, without showing it black on white

I was showing Robocop for the first time to someone who never seen it and thought of it as some robot for kids type of a movie, and I had to show her how wrong she is. So when we watched it, after Robo breaks free from the pile of scrap metal she asks me "wait, so Lewis died?". And I said "no..no! Of course not! Why would she.."it somehow seemed so obvious to me and it was the first time when I even heard the possibility or thought that she couldve died. But again, for me personally - it never crossed my mind

YOUR MOVE CREEP!  :wink: 

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a277/lovegunner/Batman/robocop00004.jpg


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chaos one

Sun Nov 01, 2009 3:36 am



-----------------------------------

I know I hated hated HATED the whole Hob story thing.  I'm probably alone in this but I would've rather had the whole relationship scenario play out between Robo and Angie.  I mean they didn't even make too much of a deal about his son so I'd rather they focus on him and his wife or someone reminding him of her.  Therefore Angie instead of Hob, he shouldn't have been written in period.  Instead focusing on Robo finding something familiar about Angie and a dying scene with her would've worked way way better.  Too bad she didn't have enough time in the movie as it is.  I'd rather have seen more of her than hob.

Did I mention I hated hob?


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KidGoesWild

Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:04 am



-----------------------------------

Angie's just a druggie prostitute (a VERY good looking one). Theres really nothing new, shocking or revolutionary here. She does serve a purpose in representing a pathetic character who's completely dependant on drugs - and as oppose to other druggies, shes shown as a gorgeous woman who would have a big success in real life yet shes merely a puppet because of her addiciton who then even gets controlled by a little kid.

Hob was a kid. Something like that was never done to this extent before or after and the character to this day is controversial and shocking too much for a movie. Something like this wouldnt be allowed today.

Of course, its all everyones preference. But I much prefer the shock and the exploration of new and outrageous ground. Not only was it shocking because it was a kid acting like a murderer devoided of any morality, but it also had a deeper meaning behind it and reached places in audience's head that hasnt been reached before. The first two RoboCop movies had villains that were developed in such way that we absolutely hated them. They were vicious. Immoral. R2 pushed the envelope even further - we got all that...but in a kid. That alone raises many questions and issues - can we hate a child? Can we want painful death and revenge on him? But we do!... but we shouldnt..we cant! And on and on. Then theres the thing with his redemption during his death, wheter we give it to him or not. Love him or hate him, but theres no denying that he's a very good metaphor and device for many things in the story, and thats coming from a former student of film academy. 

"Over the course of an hour and a half, Hob has gone from being a villain to being an anti-hero. Not many action films offer that kind of character arc even for adult characters." - proyouthpages.com website provides an interesting analysis on Hob (http://www.proyouthpages.com/robocop2.html). The character alone has a lot to it and theres lot more then what the site above touches


I think any kind of link or relation to Angie would be a head scratcher. I think Lewis would be the first choice to have some kind of emotional connection with, not just random criminal prostitute who doesnt resemble or have any connection to Ellen other than the fact that shes female. Not to mention it would wipe out all the deep stuff and psychological and moral issues that Hob's character presented to the story


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KidGoesWild

Sun Nov 01, 2009 8:19 am



-----------------------------------

Anyway, since I did the same thing for the thread about R3, here's a cool and short R2 review from major review site

DVDVERDICT.COM

"It's a masterful amalgam of sci-fi and comic book influences; in that respect, it's one of the best films of its genre. It takes much of the essence of the first film and distills it into something potentially far less palatable for mainstream viewers, stripping away anything that isn't hardcore. If Robocop can be enjoyed almost as two very separate films at once&#8212;the standard action film and the twisted sci-fi satire&#8212;then Robocop 2 is a clearer hybrid of the two. It takes one tone throughout, though one that's less accessible than the first film&#8212;you'd better be willing to accept it on its own terms or risk total alienation."

Fulvuedrive-in.com

" Robocop 2 is a worthy sequel that does not repeat that predecessor and took many risks."


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DoktorNo

Sun Nov 01, 2009 4:44 pm



-----------------------------------


Hob was a kid. Something like that was never done to this extent before or after and the character to this day is controversial and shocking too much for a movie. Something like this wouldnt be allowed today.


True, Hob character is pretty disturbing, but think about it: in Rio de Janeiro or other big Latin American city there are gangs of armed kids roaming on the streets.

In 1980's in US of A there were a great fear about rising crime, and Robocop movies were playing on those fears, and armed kid gangsters, like paramilitary cops, were just a simple interpolation.


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KidGoesWild

Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:46 pm



-----------------------------------


Hob was a kid. Something like that was never done to this extent before or after and the character to this day is controversial and shocking too much for a movie. Something like this wouldnt be allowed today.


True, Hob character is pretty disturbing, but think about it: in Rio de Janeiro or other big Latin American city there are gangs of armed kids roaming on the streets.

In 1980's in US of A there were a great fear about rising crime, and Robocop movies were playing on those fears, and armed kid gangsters, like paramilitary cops, were just a simple interpolation.

Spot on!


-----------------------------------

Superquad7

Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:27 am



-----------------------------------

I recently rewatched R2 again.  I lost count a LONG time ago.  That being said, I caught myself experiencing a few things that I think I just either didn't pay attention to as much, or that just really stood out to me a bit more this go around.  Regardless, one of the reasons I love R1 and R2 is that there's something new each time :)

*snip*Personally i see RoboCop2 as a "Murphy moving on" sequel. Although we remember the first movie ending as a "happy" one the only good thing that happened is that Murphy now remembers who is is. And then what? Should he move back to his wife and son and live happy ever after? Retire and go on a fishing trip? Move to a cottage in the mountains and write a novel? No, Murphy continues being a cop. 

Robo stalking his wife is a sad and powerful scene as he continues to long for the life he knows he can no longer have. When his wife confronts him he decides that the Murphy he once was is dead. 

He moves on.

After my first statement, this sentiment isn't new for me.  In fact, I always felt this way, even with my first time watching it as a teen and not having seen the first film, but knowing the story.  I feel that this is one of the major strengths of this movie.  It's not smooth, it's not pleasant, it's not a cookie-cutter sequel in this regard.  The whole thing emotionally for Murphy and the audience is awkward, disjointed, and uncomfortable . . . just as it would actually be in reality, which is very realistic.

*snip*I gotta disagree here completely. I cant even think of one instance when he would act like a robot, aside from when he was reprogrammed. He's all Murphy, and his witty humor and character is ever present ("Dead then", "As good as money can buy", "are we cops!?"). Not to even mention the questioning scene when theres clearly an emotion in his voice and when he chooses very good words to calm her down. Robo-Robocop would say something like "madam you are in emotional shock and psyhcological denial thats natural in post-trauma state. Officer Murphy is deceased". Wanna hear RoboCop totally depraved of Murphy? Check out RObocop 3 - 'Im fine ann, thanks for asking" - acting like he did when he was reprogrammed by OCP, and zero emotion, zero difference in voice range and strenght ("How are you feelin"?-"My efficency rate is 93%", "vehicle approaching"). I always see and hear Murphy in R2, with the only difference being that he more or less accepted he's state

Yeah, I've gotta agree here because Robo isn't a robot nor a human.  Going with my statements previously, I really enjoy the disjointedness of Robocop.  In everything he says and does, it's as if he's exploring his world as a new creature.  This became much more obvious to me this time around.  Some of Mr. Weller's deliveries in R2 were a bit odd to me, but I think much of it is him being a victim of the circumstance that is R2.  Much of Robo in R2 makes him come across as just plain silly.  The awkwardness is still present in R1, but it didn't make Robo look like a buffoon.  

I really think that where the awkwardness is very well done is where Murphy is citing the miranda rights to the dead guy.  It's funny, it's dark, and Murphy is a victim, but Murphy's not the punchline.  Granted, I'm overstating this aspect a little bit, but this has always bugged me about R2.

*snip*I gotta disagree there - The meeting with Murphy's wife didn't really do anything, they just showed it and it just left off there - it just didn't make sense to have that sequence in the film. It didn't add anything to the rest of the movie, and I don't think it brought proper closure.*snip* 

As others have already said, I really think the meeting with Murphy and his wife was VERY well done, if not one of the best aspects of the film.  Yes, if one cherry-picks the one scene, then yeah, it's off.  However, the whole thing from the moment we learn that he's "stalking" his wife ("making sure she's ok?" and "just being curious" I always feel better explains it, though it does come across as "odd") to OCP coercing Murphy into his identity, meeting the wife, then following her to her car from afar is just VERY well done.  Oddly for me, it gets worse for me emotionally when Murphy tells her he exists to "honor" her husband who "is dead".  Man . . . .

Also, that scene is for the things unsaid and not shown to us as well.  While Mr. Miller did explore Murphy's desires a bit more in Robocop vs. Terminator, I can imagine the same sort of thing going on in R2.  For me, it's much more powerful for me to be left imaging these things happening.

Anyways, I really enjoyed everyone's take in this thread, and I'm not sure if I really added anything new, but I did intentionally rewatch R2 with this forum in mind :)


-----------------------------------

Stan The Man

Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:47 pm



-----------------------------------

I like your take of the Murphy's wife sequence. You've given some decent reasoning, and I agree, the moments leading up to the last of the sequence, and indeed a fair portion of the sequence itself is just fine. I like your correlation to real life experiences, that's a good point. 

My only gripe, a gripe that still nags me to this day, is that that whole aspect in the movie just was a pulled punch to me. It just always felt it left off too abruptly and when nothing else came of it I couldn't help but feel like I was missing something. Though it did give us a return to that aspect left over from the first film, I myself had already known what the logical outcome was going to be, and the scene doesn't alter or add to that any. To me, all this scene really seems to be is a 'For-Dummies' showing of what was always meant to happen, and that's about it. They don't do anything else with this, and for what could be such a powerful and gripping aspect of the story, it just seems a bit half-assed. 

Short of an additional scene where Robo has to encounter his wife again, or a bit of dialogue with Lewis, or even just a showing that Robo/Murphy might have issues coming to grips with this outcome, the sequence by-itself just wasn't solid enough to warrant it's inclusion. It didn't give us anything new, and didn't tell us anything that we didn't already figure out anyway. And again, if it didn't give or add anything new, why even bother if we already know what the outcome will be anyway?

It's not something that hurts the film for me so much as it's something that might possibly have been better off done away with. In some ways, I'm happy the sequence is there, but nothing can change the feeling that I (and some others) have always had - That the scene, good as it is and tries to be, just wasn't necessary by itself.

I don't blame Miller for that, as it's clear he was trying to have some inclusion of emotion in the film, as shown by the early drafts and even some deleted scenes. I just brush it off as Orion wanting some pretty slam-bang action flick first and foremost, and their belief that any moment where something or someone wasn't blowing up and/or RoboCop wasn't shooting people was a moment wasted. It's just annoying, plain and simple.

To me, one of RoboCop 2's main problems, like other conceivably 'big' movies, is that the studio wanted it to be as short as possible with constant pacing, and most good action-oriented films tend to be longer.

Aliens, The Abyss, Lethal Weapon, T2, all these movies cut out things. Most of the things they cut out actually added to the film, some of them in big ways. I saw SE Aliens before the regular version, and I gotta admit, the film just wasn't as strong as it was with the cut scenes, mainly because some of them added extra emotion and heart to what was otherwise, like R2, a sci-fi action film. The ending of The Abyss didn't even make sense without the extended scenes.

A few extra minutes would have been more than enough to include some extra things that would have removed some of the excessive disjoints and inconsistencies, cleaned up some of the narrative screw-ups and overall have made it far better. Bah.


-----------------------------------

Superquad7

Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:13 am



-----------------------------------

Yeah, I agree with you to a large extent, and I certainly understand how you feel.  I guess, for me, I'm simply left with what is and just try to evaluate what's in front of me (not saying you're not, but with the first two movies, I have very little wishful thinking with what "could have been" or "should have been", but I think that largely comes with the stark contrast with how I feel about R3 and things afterward).  I hope that makes sense :)

When I watched R2 this past week, I found myself oddly really enjoying what things were for what they were.  "Breaking up" is awful and awkward.  It's messy, and that's how I felt that Murphy's "break up" with his wife was.  It's messy, and I enjoy it for being that way.  For me, if Hollywood had tried to clean it up, I may have really liked it all the years that it's been out, but I wouldn't appreciate R2 for what it is now.  I kinda hate to say it, but I've found myself liking it because it's awful in the ways that you mentioned.

The only frame of contextual reference I would personally have with this sort of thing is when girls have broken up with me or vice versa, and it's just always awkward and often times there's no closure.  For me, it just adds to the mess that's Murphy's life and how tragic it would be for him to have to deal with it.  Each time I see the whole sequence, I just feel really, REALLY horrible that this character (Alex) that I care so much about has such an absolute sucky life, yet is forced to carry on.

If I'm alone for liking Robocop 2 more and more each time, I guess I have to be (I hope not!).

  * * * * *

"Can't shoot a kid can ya, f***er?"

I really can't add anything to what KidGoesWild has said about Hob, other than to add that my own personal experience as a young teen watching R2 in the theater for the first time ever going to the theater to watch an 'R' movie was just one of the most bizarre concepts I'd encountered at that point.  His character was done SO wonderfully, and it's tragic that this film is so under-appreciated by the public at large.  Hob's death scene with Robo?  Oh man . . . . it almost felt as if Robo's own son was dying in front of him . . . but it's not his son!  This kid is a BIG time crook!

Another character . . . Mayor Kuzak.  OH MAN!  If you really want to joke around with your friends, just start randomly quoting him.  A friend of mine and myself used to do it in college and it's GREAT.

"Drugs!  Why do people do drugs?"

"Fifty cents, fifty dollars!  That's cute, kid!"

/awesome

:)

 * * * * * 

I know that Officer Lewis' character has been through a fair amount of criticism in R2, but I actually enjoy that her role in the movie was mainly Robo's partner.  In this movie, she's not like his best friend in all of the whole world in the sense that many persons have "best friends" that they share their deepest secrets with.  She's sufficient, and I actually enjoy that as well.   But also, she's loyal enough to just keep working as a cop because it's "right", not because the rest of her co-workers are on strike.  

I also enjoy that the whole time with everything emotional going on with Robo it seems as if she really doesn't know what to do or handle everything.  I think that's pretty realistic.  She's simply a gal in a very tough situation.  I actually like the fact that the scientists who work on Robo are a bit more passionate about having OCP MAKE SURE to bring him back.  it also further reinforces the idea that Robocop is a product to the point that he's more than a man, which is something I also really enjoy about R2.

Mainly, I still find some discomfort with Robo himself tap--dancing the line of being the punchline of the movie itself.  I think if there had been other things in the movie to make jokes at him, I'd just mentally check out altogether and not like R2 as much as I do.


-----------------------------------

Stan The Man

Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:03 am



-----------------------------------

If I'm alone for liking Robocop 2 more and more each time, I guess I have to be (I hope not!).

Oh you're not. I still like R2 plenty. As I've said other times, it remains the best continuation thus far. I don't know about enjoying it more, at least by this point, but I certainly don't find myself disliking it any more either. Anyway, I like it plenty. That ain't gonna change.

It's only little shit like this that sticks out in R2, the big things the film are just fine. In R3, both little and big things are fucked up, and well.. Anyway, that's another thing.

Again, I liked your real-life 'break-up' relation, and it is a good one. I'm glad you understand what I'm getting at though, and I can understand your own 'bittersweet' feeling regarding that point yourself.

Lewis could have had a bit more inclusion in the film than she did. Not a hell of a lot, but just a wee bit more. I don't think it would have hurt anything. Just my thought, though.


-----------------------------------

Superquad7

Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:24 am



-----------------------------------

If I'm alone for liking Robocop 2 more and more each time, I guess I have to be (I hope not!).

Oh you're not. I still like R2 plenty. As I've said other times, it remains the best continuation thus far. I don't know about enjoying it more, at least by this point, but I certainly don't find myself disliking it any more either. Anyway, I like it plenty. That ain't gonna change.

It's only little shit like this that sticks out in R2, the big things the film are just fine. In R3, both little and big things are fucked up, and well.. Anyway, that's another thing.

Again, I liked your real-life 'break-up' relation, and it is a good one. I'm glad you understand what I'm getting at though, and I can understand your own 'bittersweet' feeling regarding that point yourself.

Lewis could have had a bit more inclusion in the film than she did. Not a hell of a lot, but just a wee bit more. I don't think it would have hurt anything. Just my thought, though.

Well, it's good to know I'm in good company.  :)

I hope no one misreads me that I'm trying to justify liking R2.  I'm actually rather hard on critiquing movies.  But I digress . . . . 

As for Lewis, yeah, I agree.  Even some different things with the camera while Robo was being coerced by OCP could have been done.  I do really like her being kind of a lone ranger in R2, with the resistance to picketing, helping Robo while he's frying himself, and then at the end with the armored vehicle.  I think that's a great progression of her character from R1 (aiding Murphy while the rest of her co-workers were gunning him down, particularly).

As for R3, I just reread Prime Suspect a little while ago . . . . :)


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KidGoesWild

Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:24 am



-----------------------------------

I also like Supersquad's take on the meeting. I see we're starting to go in circles here now, but Ill just briefly repeat what was already said in this thread in a condensed form: R2 moved on to another story, and its R1 that dealt with his internal struggle. Still, R2 didnt forget to address it and didnt forget to tie the knot. And even when it did, I still feel sadness in Robo in the scene when theyre watching Hob in the club. I always felt that his depressed tone when hes talking to Lewis was a result/remnants of his pain from the decision he took


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Officer Harvey

Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:12 am



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Murphy's characterization: his voice was robotic again, they had him strung out on memories of his past life whe even though he had reclaimed his personality in the end of the first movie which also made it clear that he just 'feels' memories, he has the memory of being human but does not fully remember his old life nor does he need to. He wasn't Alex Murphy anymore - he was just Murphy, his mannerisms with the cold detachment of RoboCop.

The Old Man's sudden trasformation into a full-blown villain instead of the subtle antiheroic figure from the previous movie.

The police strike shouldn't have lasted very long after the first movie considering of what Morton said that Murphy was supposed to clean up the city virtually single-handedly although that propably would be somewhat complicated with the reappearance of his humanity. regardless, Murphy propably would still get the job done and as a result, OCP would let go the striking officers, that's what I'm at least thinking. Delta City should've been well under construction by 2. That's where I thought the series made sense at least, it's set maybe like a year or two after the first movie and ignores the two sequels, and Delta City is built and the police force is pretty taken care of.


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Superquad7

Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:09 am



-----------------------------------

Mainly, I really like that R2 took different directions than some audiences may have expected, yet it still feels very authentically "ROBOCOP".  Some of that authenticity can certainly be attributed to Weller, Allen, and the rest of the cast returning, but some of that is certainly attributed to the story, new villains, and everything else that makes up R2.

I always enjoyed seeing the continual growing pains of Old Detroit resisting the change into Delta City.  On one hand, you have this Utopian view of what the world could become, but there's always this idea lingering that it can never happen, or at least in the most ideal way (even hailing back to R1 where Dick and Clarance have the conversation of who will be the new crime boss once Delta City is ushered in with a "crime-free" city).

Also, I've always thought that the whole idea that Robocop was going to clean up Old Detroit single-handedly was nothing more than a sales pitch.  R2 really enforces that idea with things being looked a bit more like "products" than even R1 did.  That's one of the things I like about the ending of R2, as awkward as the ending was to me.


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KidGoesWild

Wed Dec 01, 2010 8:16 am



-----------------------------------

Murphy's characterization: his voice was robotic again, 

I disagree with that. He had a different, softer and slower speech by the end because he just realized who he was and was sad and depressed. But if you would give him a helmet again at the end of R1, he would sound tough again like he does in R2

they had him strung out on memories of his past life whe even though he had reclaimed his personality in the end of the first movie which also made it clear that he just 'feels' memories, he has the memory of being human but does not fully remember his old life nor does he need to. 

But theres nothing to say that its any different in R2. Exactly like in R1 he has those flashbacks, pieces of memory


The Old Man's sudden trasformation into a full-blown villain instead of the subtle antiheroic figure from the previous movie.


We had a thread about it. I didnt see any change. The guy didnt care for human life at all and most importantly, Jones feared him. Jones knew more about him than others. Jones couldve easily use Clarence to take care of him and become #1 himself, yet he never dared to cross him. And we never see Old Man behind the closed doors in R1, only in public in official meetings. Besides, hes not a full blown villain. Hes ruthelss like he isin R1 and cares only for business. Yes, he agreed to kill the mayor but he AGREED to - he never even suggested it - Fax did and he still hesitated


The police strike shouldn't have lasted very long after the first movie

People for some reason miss the fact that it was a second strike, not the continuation of the same one from R1


-----------------------------------

RoboFan85

Sun Dec 05, 2010 6:41 am



-----------------------------------

i honestly liked the original a lot better than all of them, part 2 was decent but don't get me started on part 3, i have 2 reasons why i didn't like 3 as much.

1. Robert Burke as Robo, get real, Peter Weller=Robocop can i get an amen to that.

2. Paul Verhoeven wasn't the director, he is awesome at directing.


-----------------------------------

KidGoesWild

Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:35 am



-----------------------------------

If I had to pick one, my biggest gripe with R3 was that Dekker took out all humanity out of Robocop character.


-----------------------------------

RoboFan85

Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:54 am



-----------------------------------

If I had to pick one, my biggest gripe with R3 was that Dekker took out all humanity out of Robocop character.
what did you mean by "humanity"?


-----------------------------------

KidGoesWild

Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:15 am



-----------------------------------

I mean all traces of human being and Murphy., not leaving any kind of emotions or persinality in him. Thats why he instantly seemed "off" when I first saw the movie in R3. That wasnt the RoboCop I knew and I couldnt identify with the piece of hardware that he was changed into. To further explain what I mean, here are just a few examples:

-In the first 2 movies, Robocop IS Murphy, with the same personality and everything, only with sgnificant memory loss and enclosed in a metallic body. in "RoboCop", we see Robo in pain many times, gritting his teeth and twisting when he's fighting the painful program in Jones' office:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_JrMAg7gZ5FQ/TPgkEvSeAzI/AAAAAAAAAto/ViQXU7CJFKY/s1600/pain1.PNG

Or when he's impaled by Clarence, or when he's shot by ED 209. We also see him scared, surprised and angry, like when Lewis tells him who he is, or when he sees Lewis after getting chased by the SWAT team. We see him sad and depresses. We also see him visibly making a physical effort to lift heavy things, like when hes taking the debris off of him after killing Clarence. Hes a MAN, just in a cyborg body

Same in RoboCop 2 - We see him twice on a verge of crying, with a shaky voice, when hes responding to Hozlgang's mental bashing and when he's comforting Hob. We see him sad and we see screaming and gritting teeth in pain, like when hes captured, fought and then tortured in factory or when hes electrocuting himself, we see him pissed off like when in the factory, promising that he will kill him:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_JrMAg7gZ5FQ/TPgk9eloyeI/AAAAAAAAAtw/W0gxIrqvMVY/s1600/pain6.PNG

And we also see him in pain and physcially reacting when hurt and making effort to lift/move heavy things, like when hes pulling Cain off the rooftop

Now take a look at R3. Nothing. Throughout the entire movie, theres not one trace of emotions or humanity on his part. His voice is so deep that he sounds angry all the time, but hes not. Hes just raising his voice sometimes. Look how he reacts when he gets hurt:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_JrMAg7gZ5FQ/TPgl16HMh5I/AAAAAAAAAt8/Tr9t3HWL61g/s1600/nopain4.PNG
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_JrMAg7gZ5FQ/TPgl7R7GJ8I/AAAAAAAAAuA/oT1O_a2pjpI/s1600/nopain2.PNG

See the difference? He feels no pain. He acts like hes constantly on valium. Remember in R1 when he kills Clarence and screams after the hurt Lewis? "Lewis!!" and in R3 he never does anything, he just looks at her and then he still shows no emotions at all. And not to mention he's talk - "vehicle approaching", "tracking". Not recognizing jokes, like the Mac truck joke and responding to them literally, not even being capable of humane conversation with a kid. The kid asks him "how are you feeling?" and he says "My efficiency rate is 93%"

And theres plenty more. The bottom line is, Dekker completely erased Murphy and replaced him with a piece of stiff hardware that has as much personality as a toaster. I mean, can you imagine the Robo from the first two movies after getting hurt by Clarence or Cain;s gang saying " you are under arrest for destroying Police property"?

This is all the expressions we see in Robo throughout the entire movie
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_JrMAg7gZ5FQ/TPgmGdEo4rI/AAAAAAAAAuE/ufSz18B1MRc/s1600/nopain5.PNG


-----------------------------------

RoboFan85

Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:52 am



-----------------------------------

I get your point now, in R1 and 2, it's murphy as a cop/robot, and R3, it's all robot talking and moving, if you get what im saying, not one sign of "murphy" is in the Robocop cyborg, which is why 3 sucked on SO many levels and the director wasn't P.H.


-----------------------------------

KidGoesWild

Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:58 am



-----------------------------------

Thats right. And whats funny about it is that in some interviews Dekker said that hes going back to the roots and to what the character is all about. Funny guy he is

_____________ 

http://robocopmovies.blogspot.com/


-----------------------------------

ChAnOoD

Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:01 pm



-----------------------------------

Thats right. And whats funny about it is that in some interviews Dekker said that hes going back to the roots and to what the character is all about. Funny guy he is

I guess a possible explanation of the "no-pain" RoboCop in the third movie is that it´s aimed for kids, so maybe it would be "disgusting" for the kids to see his hero suffering... Who knows!


-----------------------------------

KidGoesWild

Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:12 pm



-----------------------------------

I dont know. I think Dekker simply didnt get the character and just presented him as a robot only, or perhaps as you say it was a conscious decision to just make him a robot and nothing more because thats cooler for kids. Cause were not talking about just pain, he has zero emotions throughout the entire movie. And the robotic dialogue he spewes, mentioned above as well. I like how someone once described him as Robo on Valium

_____________ 

http://robocopmovies.blogspot.com/


-----------------------------------

RoboJOF

Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:34 am



-----------------------------------

What's up with the electrocution chest-thrusts in Robocop 2?


-----------------------------------

vegasrobo

Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:37 pm



-----------------------------------

Really?..Never wondered about that just figured it was a result of a massive system overload.


-----------------------------------

chaos one

Fri Sep 18, 2015 3:11 pm



-----------------------------------

What's up with the electrocution chest-thrusts in Robocop 2?

I used to think he was being pulled forward but now I don't know..


-----------------------------------

RoboJOF

Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:26 am



-----------------------------------

Whatever it is, the chest thrust is surely memorable. If Robocop ever crashes into a nightclub where they are playing 90s hip hop music, he can raise the robotic roof with the Chest Thrust dance move.


-----------------------------------

Maxlee

Sat Sep 19, 2015 12:31 pm



-----------------------------------

It's an actor in a heavy cumbersome suit being told by the director to act like "a cyborg being electrocuted", what would you have done ?  :lol: 

Speaking of this scene, you also see RoboCop falling on his knees, keeping this position must have been touch for Weller as well. Who knows in what pain his knees where afterwards (and how broken the suit was at the knee area)


-----------------------------------

ChAnOoD

Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:31 pm



-----------------------------------

Whatever it is, the chest thrust is surely memorable. If Robocop ever crashes into a nightclub where they are playing 90s hip hop music, he can raise the robotic roof with the Chest Thrust dance move.

He could get back with his wife if he did those sexual movements when they talked alone.


-----------------------------------

Ex-Machino

Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:06 am



-----------------------------------

I mean all traces of human being and Murphy., not leaving any kind of emotions or persinality in him. Thats why he instantly seemed "off" when I first saw the movie in R3. That wasnt the RoboCop I knew and I couldnt identify with the piece of hardware that he was changed into. To further explain what I mean, here are just a few examples:

-In the first 2 movies, Robocop IS Murphy, with the same personality and everything, only with sgnificant memory loss and enclosed in a metallic body. in "RoboCop", we see Robo in pain many times, gritting his teeth and twisting when he's fighting the painful program in Jones' office:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_JrMAg7gZ5FQ/TPgkEvSeAzI/AAAAAAAAAto/ViQXU7CJFKY/s1600/pain1.PNG

Or when he's impaled by Clarence, or when he's shot by ED 209. We also see him scared, surprised and angry, like when Lewis tells him who he is, or when he sees Lewis after getting chased by the SWAT team. We see him sad and depresses. We also see him visibly making a physical effort to lift heavy things, like when hes taking the debris off of him after killing Clarence. Hes a MAN, just in a cyborg body

Same in RoboCop 2 - We see him twice on a verge of crying, with a shaky voice, when hes responding to Hozlgang's mental bashing and when he's comforting Hob. We see him sad and we see screaming and gritting teeth in pain, like when hes captured, fought and then tortured in factory or when hes electrocuting himself, we see him pissed off like when in the factory, promising that he will kill him:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_JrMAg7gZ5FQ/TPgk9eloyeI/AAAAAAAAAtw/W0gxIrqvMVY/s1600/pain6.PNG

And we also see him in pain and physcially reacting when hurt and making effort to lift/move heavy things, like when hes pulling Cain off the rooftop

Now take a look at R3. Nothing. Throughout the entire movie, theres not one trace of emotions or humanity on his part. His voice is so deep that he sounds angry all the time, but hes not. Hes just raising his voice sometimes. Look how he reacts when he gets hurt:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_JrMAg7gZ5FQ/TPgl16HMh5I/AAAAAAAAAt8/Tr9t3HWL61g/s1600/nopain4.PNG
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_JrMAg7gZ5FQ/TPgl7R7GJ8I/AAAAAAAAAuA/oT1O_a2pjpI/s1600/nopain2.PNG

See the difference? He feels no pain. He acts like hes constantly on valium. Remember in R1 when he kills Clarence and screams after the hurt Lewis? "Lewis!!" and in R3 he never does anything, he just looks at her and then he still shows no emotions at all. And not to mention he's talk - "vehicle approaching", "tracking". Not recognizing jokes, like the Mac truck joke and responding to them literally, not even being capable of humane conversation with a kid. The kid asks him "how are you feeling?" and he says "My efficiency rate is 93%"

And theres plenty more. The bottom line is, Dekker completely erased Murphy and replaced him with a piece of stiff hardware that has as much personality as a toaster. I mean, can you imagine the Robo from the first two movies after getting hurt by Clarence or Cain;s gang saying " you are under arrest for destroying Police property"?

This is all the expressions we see in Robo throughout the entire movie
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_JrMAg7gZ5FQ/TPgmGdEo4rI/AAAAAAAAAuE/ufSz18B1MRc/s1600/nopain5.PNG

Brilliant.  this is why I don´t acknowledge Robo3, you forgot to mention, that when Robo is fighting to override directive 4 at Jones office we can ACTUALLY see his breathing, his waist sorta moves with the effort he is making.  I don´t know if that was deliberate, or it was simply Weller struggling inside the suit.  In any case the scene is very real.  Then afterwards when he is rescued by Lewis, we can see his face is sweating of the effort that it took him to escape Jones, ED-209 and Hedgecock.

When Robo is broken into pieces in R2, the technician chick says he is in hell of the pain he is enduring.  Also when he electrocutes himself, it took many cops to lift him up, and n R3 only a couple of malnourished rebels could carry him without a problem?

Another thing that bothers me from R3 is how people talk to him and he doesn´t respond.  As if the humanity he developed in R1 went to waste.  And yes it bothers me how he doesnt feel any emotional or physical pain throughout the movie.  He is just a toy, with a flight pack, for kids:/


-----------------------------------

Rick

Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:16 am



-----------------------------------

It's an actor in a heavy cumbersome suit being told by the director to act like "a cyborg being electrocuted", what would you have done ?  :lol: 

Speaking of this scene, you also see RoboCop falling on his knees, keeping this position must have been touch for Weller as well. Who knows in what pain his knees where afterwards (and how broken the suit was at the knee area)I imagine there was a mat for Peter to fall on to to protect his knees and the suit. They simply add the sounds of metal hitting the concrete in post. A pair of stunt legs could have been used for the distant shot we see of Robo actually on his knees, so we wouldn't notice the damage or crappyness of the legs.


-----------------------------------

KidGoesWild

Thu Nov 24, 2016 4:25 pm



-----------------------------------



Brilliant.  this is why I don´t acknowledge Robo3, you forgot to mention, that when Robo is fighting to override directive 4 at Jones office we can ACTUALLY see his breathing, his waist sorta moves with the effort he is making.  I don´t know if that was deliberate, or it was simply Weller struggling inside the suit.  In any case the scene is very real.  Then afterwards when he is rescued by Lewis, we can see his face is sweating of the effort that it took him to escape Jones, ED-209 and Hedgecock.

When Robo is broken into pieces in R2, the technician chick says he is in hell of the pain he is enduring.  Also when he electrocutes himself, it took many cops to lift him up, and n R3 only a couple of malnourished rebels could carry him without a problem?

Another thing that bothers me from R3 is how people talk to him and he doesn´t respond.  As if the humanity he developed in R1 went to waste.  And yes it bothers me how he doesnt feel any emotional or physical pain throughout the movie.  He is just a toy, with a flight pack, for kids:/


EggSacTly

_____________________________ 

http://robocopmovies.blogspot.com/


-----------------------------------

TODD-209

Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:27 am



-----------------------------------

I'm not usually one to defend RoboCop 3, as much as it is a guilty pleasure for me (I love terrible movies...) (lol), but I thought there was a reasonable amount of emotion in his character. I don't know if I would have wanted to see an increasingly-emotional RoboCop...maybe flashes of a little more anger over the death of Lewis, and perhaps this could have been further expressed in a little more brutality when he was dealing with the Rehab officers...but then they wouldn't have gotten the kid-friendly rating they were shooting-for.  (No pun intended...) (lol)

I think perhaps the whole "Murphy-rediscovering-his-humanity" story arc had already been told, so maybe the unrelatable, peculiar way RoboCop reacted to certain things were mined for kiddie-humor, as it were. Or maybe, if one might suspend criticism and/or expectations, one might surmise that Murphy may have even endeavoured to actually suppress his humanity and emotions to be more effective at his job. It may have been slight or subdued, but he did display some sadness and anger over Lewis, however subtle as it was, along with seemingly a sense of anger and vengeance aimed towards OCP and the Rehab officers, as well as some tenderness with Nikko, further reminding him of his own son, ultimately. So there was some humanity there, but not much, and even less anguish or pain...but like I said we had already seen that side of him, and they were limited by the film's rating.

I also considered how unfeeling and nonchalant RoboCop reacted when his fingers, and ultimately his entire left forearm was cut-off by the *groan* Otomo ninja...but I'd imagine since it was interchangeable to begin with, maybe that particular arm was psychologically seen by RoboCop as a unilateral or replaceable component instead of an extension of his cybernetic self. When Clarence impales his chest in the first film, I always imagined he may have damaged some organics that may have been housed in his chest, thereby eliciting the very human cry of pain, although I suppose it's more poignant and intriguing to think he had physically and mentally accepted his robotic condition to the point that it really did hurt him when his robotic components were damaged...but then if that's the case, it would serve to only weaken the character overall, which, would in-turn, diminish and marginalize his rebirth as an unstoppable machine of vengeance, but I digress...

Having said all of that...therein lies the problem with RoboCop 3; it was a case of self sabotage and second-guessing one's own fan base. Whatever focus group that decided RoboCop films should be more kid or family friendly misunderstood what made RoboCop cool to begin with...the graphic gore, violence, and realism of it all is what made the character so memorable to begin with...does anyone seriously think that had the first film had been rewritten and restructured to be more kid and or family-friendly before it was ever released, that we would still be talking about it thirty years later? How do they think RoboCop was such a hit to begin with? It took some very risky chances with the very nature of the film, the intense subject matter, and that's why its appeal lasts unto this very day, whereas RoboCop 3, as enjoyable as it may be to die-hard fans (like me) that still love it for what it is, remains in comparison as an unfortunate, underdeveloped, and neutered installment in a series that still holds so much potential as a theatrically unique, exciting, and completely viable concept.


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TODD-209

Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:55 am



-----------------------------------

Oh, and as for RoboCop 2 and why it didn't necessarily hold up to the original...it was produced to capitalize on the success of the first film, whereas the first one was crafted with a specific story in mind...clear themes to illustrated and extrapolate on.


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KidGoesWild

Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:10 pm



-----------------------------------

When Clarence impales his chest in the first film, I always imagined he may have damaged some organics that may have been housed in his chest, thereby eliciting the very human cry of pain, although I suppose it's more poignant and intriguing to think he had physically and mentally accepted his robotic condition to the point that it really did hurt him when his robotic components were damaged...but then if that's the case, it would serve to only weaken the character overall, which, would in-turn, diminish and marginalize his rebirth as an unstoppable machine of vengeance, but I digress...

An unfeeling, robotic robocop has absolutely no value or interest to me at all. Its becomes a cliche stiff robot then. Thats why I have absolutely no interest in almost anything post R2. Im a huge fan of THAT robocop - a guy driven by vengeance, who, although armored and stronger, can also feel pain , emotional and physical. In R2 he hurt a lot, and basically  re-lived his brutal death and mutilation, even in robotic body. THAT robocop is a fantastic character to me. A man inside the suit, who feels anger, pathos, needs, and can be hurt and tortured like any of us, even if it takes a bit more to do it

_____________________________ 

http://robocopmovies.blogspot.com/


-----------------------------------

TODD-209

Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:14 pm



-----------------------------------

You make a good point...Robert Burke couldn't seem to find a natural voice for RoboCop; it was either too soft and too human, or it was way too wooden and/or robotic, and one would argue that RoboCop's voice has as much to do with his overall portrayal as anything else inflected by the actor playing him. That's where Peter Weller succeeded on this one of so many levels in his understanding and portrayal of RoboCop...after all, in helping to bring the character to life to begin with, he understood what was going on with the character, in his mind, heart, and soul, whereas Robert Burke was stepping into a role and script he had to adapt to, to wrap his mind around, and I don't think he necessarily understood it completely, thereby proving you can't always simply replace the actor portraying a larger-than-life character like RoboCop and it be the same.

I have to admit though, there are a few nuances Robert Burke brought to the table that I rather liked, even if he wasn't necessarily right for the part. He did use some unique static movements that were different from Welller's. For example, when he draws his gun from his leg-holster in the church scene, I always made a mental note about how very robotic it looked, and you could get a good feel for his inner turmoil when he's looking back and forth between the Rehab officers and the displaced civilians. There were little flashes of brilliance, but they were few and far between...


-----------------------------------

KidGoesWild

Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:07 pm



-----------------------------------

Well Burke was the best replacement. Yes, his moves were really good, but thankfully he also had Moni Yakim to coach him. I cant fault him for Robo's behavior, I mean all his robotic lines and the way he acted was in the script, so its not his fauly at all, and he was really into it judging by interviews with him and people around him. I dont blame Robert at all, but Dekker for this portrayal. And still, none of the successive actor after Weller had the small, short lips like Weller had, every other guy starting with Burke, had wide and long arching lips ( :( ) and that just didnt fit the mask I think, it looked like Robo just ate something bitter and the lips took most of the exposed face area

Heres what I mean

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-B1_WtN7IzDg/WHvGOvsaczI/AAAAAAAAEgw/VNfFukp8Ad0v1jFo4_JTWi6dnvF88wlhQCLcB/s1600/LIPS.png
_____________________________ 

http://robocopmovies.blogspot.com/


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Edd 209

Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:20 am



-----------------------------------

Maybe the baby food wasn't up to scratch in R3?


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HOB888

Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:37 pm



-----------------------------------

When Clarence impales his chest in the first film, I always imagined he may have damaged some organics that may have been housed in his chest, thereby eliciting the very human cry of pain, although I suppose it's more poignant and intriguing to think he had physically and mentally accepted his robotic condition to the point that it really did hurt him when his robotic components were damaged...but then if that's the case, it would serve to only weaken the character overall, which, would in-turn, diminish and marginalize his rebirth as an unstoppable machine of vengeance, but I digress...

An unfeeling, robotic robocop has absolutely no value or interest to me at all. Its becomes a cliche stiff robot then. Thats why I have absolutely no interest in almost anything post R2. Im a huge fan of THAT robocop - a guy driven by vengeance, who, although armored and stronger, can also feel pain , emotional and physical. In R2 he hurt a lot, and basically  re-lived his brutal death and mutilation, even in robotic body. THAT robocop is a fantastic character to me. A man inside the suit, who feels anger, pathos, needs, and can be hurt and tortured like any of us, even if it takes a bit more to do it

_____________________________ 

http://robocopmovies.blogspot.com/
There was a lot of humanity inside Robocop in R2, too bad much people didn't want to see it.Like when he decided to get rid all of those nonsensical PC directives, even if there was a chance that he could die in the process.


-----------------------------------

KidGoesWild

Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:08 pm



-----------------------------------

When Clarence impales his chest in the first film, I always imagined he may have damaged some organics that may have been housed in his chest, thereby eliciting the very human cry of pain, although I suppose it's more poignant and intriguing to think he had physically and mentally accepted his robotic condition to the point that it really did hurt him when his robotic components were damaged...but then if that's the case, it would serve to only weaken the character overall, which, would in-turn, diminish and marginalize his rebirth as an unstoppable machine of vengeance, but I digress...

An unfeeling, robotic robocop has absolutely no value or interest to me at all. Its becomes a cliche stiff robot then. Thats why I have absolutely no interest in almost anything post R2. Im a huge fan of THAT robocop - a guy driven by vengeance, who, although armored and stronger, can also feel pain , emotional and physical. In R2 he hurt a lot, and basically  re-lived his brutal death and mutilation, even in robotic body. THAT robocop is a fantastic character to me. A man inside the suit, who feels anger, pathos, needs, and can be hurt and tortured like any of us, even if it takes a bit more to do it

_____________________________ 

http://robocopmovies.blogspot.com/
There was a lot of humanity inside Robocop in R2, too bad much people didn't want to see it.Like when he decided to get rid all of those nonsensical PC directives, even if there was a chance that he could die in the process.


Oh it goes far more beyond that, Ive never missed it, and it was decades after, that I started reading that most people didnt get it. For example, the performance highlighted in the Definitive Story book when Holzgang psychologically bullies Robo. Weller with his shaky voice and great subtle facial performance is almost on the verge of tears. Not to mention all those million instances when Robo is fuming with anger "I will KILL you!" and when he is getting his revenge with an ice cold vengeance (Kane chase). And most of the movie he is depressed, and I got it right away, there was a time when I was reading this bs that Robo returned to the robotic state in R2 (an always puzzling statemnent) that I thought "hmm, maybe I was just reading too much into this performance, maybe they are right", but then Ive read the novelization that confirms it right there and then  - he is said, given up almost, depressed


_____________________________ 

http://robocopmovies.blogspot.com/


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artuditu

Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:20 pm



-----------------------------------

Burke introduced the infamous "pissed-off lips" and to some extend can be seen in the following Murphy incarnations.

Could it be the chin guards used in those robo suits? Maybe it didn't fit to the other actors the same way it did to Weller...


-----------------------------------

Edd 209

Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:53 am



-----------------------------------

 the Definitive Story book

what is the definiteive story book?

Could it be the chin guards used in those robo suits? Maybe it didn't fit to the other actors the same way it did to Weller...

The R1 chin guard certainly seems to be more flexible and moulded to Weller's chin, whereas the shiny chin guard from R2 and beyond seems a bit more fixed in position - maybe Burke coulnd't get his mouth comfortable in there?


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RoboPimp

Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:14 am



-----------------------------------

what is the definiteive story book?

Its a book that contains hundreds of pages about the making of Robocop, a few dozen pages about Robocop 2 and 3, and at most a page each about the games, maybe some extraneous mention of the comics...


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KidGoesWild

Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:25 am



-----------------------------------

The infamous pissed-off lips Burke introduced and to some extend can be seen in the following Murphy incarnations.

Could it be the chin guards used in those robo suits? Maybe it didn't fit to the other actors the same way it did to Weller...

Its simply different anatomy, others' lips are not only wider and thinner, theyre in a different spot on the face. Weller's were almost feminine and he had them much higher than others' because of his elongated face. He really did have a unique, Mannequin-like (as Verhoeven described it) face


As for The definitve story, every fan should have it, its great, loaded with photos
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51gOMIaEd%2BL._SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

_____________________________ 

http://robocopmovies.blogspot.com/


-----------------------------------

Edd 209

Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:47 am



-----------------------------------


As for The definitve story, every fan should have it, its great, loaded with photos
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51gOMIaEd%2BL._SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?!  Why don't I have this?!
Right, an online purchase needs to be made...


-----------------------------------

TODD-209

Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:36 pm



-----------------------------------

When Clarence impales his chest in the first film, I always imagined he may have damaged some organics that may have been housed in his chest, thereby eliciting the very human cry of pain, although I suppose it's more poignant and intriguing to think he had physically and mentally accepted his robotic condition to the point that it really did hurt him when his robotic components were damaged...but then if that's the case, it would serve to only weaken the character overall, which, would in-turn, diminish and marginalize his rebirth as an unstoppable machine of vengeance, but I digress...

An unfeeling, robotic robocop has absolutely no value or interest to me at all. Its becomes a cliche stiff robot then. Thats why I have absolutely no interest in almost anything post R2. Im a huge fan of THAT robocop - a guy driven by vengeance, who, although armored and stronger, can also feel pain , emotional and physical. In R2 he hurt a lot, and basically  re-lived his brutal death and mutilation, even in robotic body. THAT robocop is a fantastic character to me. A man inside the suit, who feels anger, pathos, needs, and can be hurt and tortured like any of us, even if it takes a bit more to do it

_____________________________ 

http://robocopmovies.blogspot.com/
There was a lot of humanity inside Robocop in R2, too bad much people didn't want to see it.Like when he decided to get rid all of those nonsensical PC directives, even if there was a chance that he could die in the process.


Oh it goes far more beyond that, Ive never missed it, and it was decades after, that I started reading that most people didnt get it. For example, the performance highlighted in the Definitive Story book when Holzgang psychologically bullies Robo. Weller with his shaky voice and great subtle facial performance is almost on the verge of tears. Not to mention all those million instances when Robo is fuming with anger "I will KILL you!" and when he is getting his revenge with an ice cold vengeance (Kane chase). And most of the movie he is depressed, and I got it right away, there was a time when I was reading this bs that Robo returned to the robotic state in R2 (an always puzzling statemnent) that I thought "hmm, maybe I was just reading too much into this performance, maybe they are right", but then Ive read the novelization that confirms it right there and then  - he is said, given up almost, depressed


_____________________________ 

http://robocopmovies.blogspot.com/

Yeah...I always loved the subtle nuances Weller gave his performance in the second one...he made it seem as if RoboCop was still guided by his OCP-programmed protocols and parameters, yet there was a hint of self-aware humanity peeking-through in his comments and actions. I never got the impression that Weller's performance signaled a return to his pre-self-awareness state at all in RoboCop 2.


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RoboPimp

Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:01 pm



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https://preview.ibb.co/kv6u49/maxresdefault.jpg


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HOB888

Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:02 pm



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As a cyborg, Robo was never more human than in R2 when all the directives disappeared.


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JohnBoyAdvance

Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:43 pm



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I enjoyed the hell out of Robocop 2.

But, I think where it stumbles is that it just feels mean to watch. Hob, the kids in the arcade, the kids in the street, the couple in the limo at the start, Duffy's interrogation and death, hell even at the end where the old man is literally stepping over a body to get in the car. It kinda gets you down. Your big triumphant moment is tainted.

I think its overall a misunderstanding of dark humour.

I also think it needs a better pacing. After Robocop crashes into Cain's van, you barely see him again whilst Faxx and Hob plots. Yeah there was meant to be a scene in the Robocop 2 lab with Robo and Lewis. But that was gone. Dunno what you can do without a bit of a complete re-shift.

Overall I think they did the best of a bodge job.


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RoboWags

Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:59 am



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RoboCop 2 was never a problem for me. I think they would've benefited much greater with Verhoeven at the helm and we would've gotten a much better movie, but director aside I feel the movie still added depth to the characters. It certainly did more for them than Robo 3 did... It still felt like a RoboCop movie to me and I think that's important.


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Stan The Man

Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:21 pm



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JBA and Wags both pretty much said it for me.. R2 got a lot wrong and went too dark and harsh, but despite that it still feels like RoboCop.


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artuditu

Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:25 pm



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R2 has some weirdness to it that makes it different from almost anything else. I think it's mostly thanks to Frank Miller screenplay and the year 1990, just when the 80's were dying and we got other crazy movies like Total Recall, Predator 2, Ninja Turtles, Dick Tracy... All of them have a freakish or exaggerated tone... And there is the violence, Total Recall, Predator 2 and Robocop 2 are among the goriest mainstream films of their time, which for Pred and Robo it turned out to be too mean-spirited, even if they still have lots of fun stuff.

Then James Cameron reached a new height with Terminator 2, introduced CGI and the tone was more mainstream, serious and polished, with no weird stuff. Talking about dates, I just realized there was a Robocop 2 before Terminator 2 :lol:


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Stan The Man

Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:55 pm



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Talking about dates, I just realized there was a Robocop 2 before Terminator 2 :lol:

Well yeah, Mr. Cameron made some not-too-kind remarks about R2 in one of those publications in an interview where he was in the middle of making T2 (R2 had just been released). But I would expect you of all people to know that! :b

Anyway not to veer off a bit but I really think there is something to this 1990 thing myself. Even what should be arguably 'lighter' flicks like Kindergarten Cop and Tremors they too still had a kind of odd dark tone to them I think. And that would carry on for a bit longer on a few examples - The Last Boy Scout, Alien3, etc. Frankly I actually kinda like that whole maybe-a-tad-too-dark thing myself, which probably explains my perhaps higher enjoyment of all those films, R2 included. 

I guess essentially I agree with ya yet again here - I concur it seems indeed a rather 'post-80s' thing where that kind of full-on and over the top yet rather harsh and raw type of film was having a swansong before the paradigm shift to T2/Last Action Hero/Demolition Man-ish kind of movies that even when they're trying to be action filled and are sharp are also rather 'lighter', lacking a certain grit. In R3's case perhaps they saw this coming and tried to adjust to it but truth-be-told it doesn't work for Robo to me. 

And so while R2 was too dark and harsh, I will still prefer that to the too light R3. Again this is partly due to my own preference for a bit of a darker and grittier piece. But I also agree in R2's case specifically it has a uniqueness to it as well. Though much of it feels familiar (and I daresay much of this is due to Weller, but not entirely) even then it is also quite different. It is its own. And while that puts some people off, I rather admire and appreciate that. As I think you yourself also said before it's far from generic, which can't entirely be said about many other sequels - R3 included.


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RoboJOF

Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:07 am



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The comments about R2 being too harsh in a time when movies were losing their edge got me thinking. You all have made a good point about 90s movies (continuing to the present), they are meant for all audiences despite the rating system. The filmmakers and the production companies want to fill those seat and have the half billion dollar box office returns. Robocop was not meant for everyone. In fact coming from Verhoeven, it was more like an independent film, which are sometimes made with no mainstream audience in mind. It reads to me like a work of art (not just because I am a fan), but in the way art is a reflection of life. It spoke to the political and societal issues at the time and put a humorous spin on them, in a serious movie. That being said, Robocop 2 was probably written to be artful, by the way in makes comments on crime, the drug war, political and corporate deals, etc. but it was not executed nearly as well. I have read that Irvin Kershner did not have the same rapport with the actors on the film and that his vision for the movie was not what the writers had intended. In fact, its as though he was trying to make a typical mainstream 90s movie, with as much violence jammed into it as possible.
I always felt that it should have been darker, more serious in tone. The Robocop 2 score was also detrimental for me on account of it being less ominous and instead of mournful, it sounds like some triumphant overture with the "Robocop" chants in the chorus! [/list]


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HOB888

Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:22 pm



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it sounds like some triumphant overture with the "Robocop" chants in the chorus! 

This song is only used during the end credits.


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RoboJOF

Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:50 pm



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That's true, Hobb. I still love Robocop 2, but while the score was what you might expect in a superhero movie (big booming instruments, a rousing main theme), it doesn't seem to match the film's mood at times. But I guess when you are a composer and your are given the task of creating music for a Robocop movie, knowing that he has become hero in comics, tv, etc., I shouldn't be too surprised with what was written.


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Superquad7

Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:04 pm



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I hope you guys don't feel like I'm bringing up an old thread, but I found myself reviewing everyone's comments here (including my own) again, and I've always wanted to write an analysis of R2.  I feel I'm a bit closer today to this than I have been in a long time, as I'm doing some preliminary work starting with this thread.  I think each of you have brought up some REALLY great points.  I hope I can continue this work we have all laid the foundation for here.  

More news at 11! :)


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LaughingSnowman

Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:11 pm



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I get depressed watching R2 so I choose not to watch it anymore. I don't even find it fun because it has such a discouraging feel to it.


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Superquad7

Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:58 pm



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I get depressed watching R2 so I choose not to watch it anymore. I don't even find it fun because it has such a discouraging feel to it.

Bleah!


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Archive

Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:22 am



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I get depressed watching R2 so I choose not to watch it anymore. I don't even find it fun because it has such a discouraging feel to it.

Interesting, what parts do you find depressing? I've seen so many movies since R2 that truly are sad and depressing (recently Midsommar and Joker) and nowadays Robo2 is pretty ok in its tone. A bit cold but its fine. 

The terrifying Murphys death scene from the first movie still tops anything that Robo2 can throw at you.


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RoboPimp

Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:05 pm



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I get depressed watching R2 so I choose not to watch it anymore. I don't even find it fun because it has such a discouraging feel to it.

Interesting, what parts do you find depressing? I've seen so many movies since R2 that truly are sad and depressing (recently Midsommar and Joker) and nowadays Robo2 is pretty ok in its tone. A bit cold but its fine. 

The terrifying Murphys death scene from the first movie still tops anything that Robo2 can throw at you.

I totally agree. Like anything Frank Miller writes, there is definitely a cynical downer vibe at times, but unlike everything Frank Miller writes, it has a triumphant and optimistic conclusion. If Frank Miller was writing it now, RoboCop would be  dead, Cain would still be running a nuke empire, and the ending would be totally bleak. However, that is not what we got, and by the end it is your typical 'hero saves the day' vibe. Far from the most depressing film I've ever seen, and I don't think an action or sci-fi movie can ever really be as dark and depressing at the dramas that are built around that kind of tone. So I do see where you are coming from in terms of the 'discouraging' tone of RoboCop 2, but remember that now matter how discouraged and literally destroyed RoboCop was, Murhpy prevailed and he came back to save the day in the end, and that's a damn hopeful message to me!


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Maxlee

Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:31 pm



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Funny, the more I see R2, the more I see it as a over the top, sarcastic, looney-esque movie with a strange sense of humor that doesn't take itself serious whatsoever. Like, almost every character is batshit crazy and wouldn't be able to properly function in our own reality.

The violin-man, the surgeons being silly when they casually extract a brain, Catzo as comic relief when our hero is being butchered, Faxx screaming at everyone with her 24/7 annoyed look, OCP being evil for the sake of being evil, Duffy generally being a doofus ...

The movie went from unwatchable cruel to what-were-they-smoking-I-need-more-beer-for-this to me.

Funny thing.

(But make no mistake, I still HATE the dismemberment-plot.)


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Superquad7

Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:27 pm



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Funny, the more I see R2, the more I see it as a over the top, sarcastic, looney-esque movie with a strange sense of humor that doesn't take itself serious whatsoever. Like, almost every character is batshit crazy and wouldn't be able to properly function in our own reality.

The violin-man, the surgeons being silly when they casually extract a brain, Catzo as comic relief when our hero is being butchered, Faxx screaming at everyone with her 24/7 annoyed look, OCP being evil for the sake of being evil, Duffy generally being a doofus ...

The movie went from unwatchable cruel to what-were-they-smoking-I-need-more-beer-for-this to me.

Funny thing.

(But make no mistake, I still HATE the dismemberment-plot.)

This guy gets it.

I like the plot, though.


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HOB888

Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:49 pm



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I get depressed watching R2 so I choose not to watch it anymore. I don't even find it fun because it has such a discouraging feel to it.

Interesting, what parts do you find depressing? I've seen so many movies since R2 that truly are sad and depressing (recently Midsommar and Joker) and nowadays Robo2 is pretty ok in its tone. A bit cold but its fine. 

The terrifying Murphys death scene from the first movie still tops anything that Robo2 can throw at you.

 and by the end it is your typical 'hero saves the day' vibe. Far from the most depressing film I've ever seen, and I don't think an action or sci-fi movie can ever really be as dark and depressing at the dramas that are built around that kind of tone. So I do see where you are coming from in terms of the 'discouraging' tone of RoboCop 2, but remember that now matter how discouraged and literally destroyed RoboCop was, Murhpy prevailed and he came back to save the day in the end, and that's a damn hopeful message to me!


This is not how I see it.The the Old man is not busted, and Detroit is still plagued by crime.The ending of the original felt happier because all the bad guys got killed or busted at least.


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RoboLewis

Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:30 am



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I wanted to see more scenes with Murphy and Lewis to see how they’ve grown as partners since the end of the first film. I wish some of the deleted scenes were kept in because they were great. Duffy getting cut open, Cain’s brain getting removed and his eyes staring back at you were disturbing scenes. Robocain shooting everyone in the dark and then when he showed his angry face to Angie and kills her was truly frightening! Murphy being stripped is a scene I have skip at times but it hurts to see Murphy in pain!


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Archive

Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:09 pm



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Interesting quote from Mark Rolston who played a small part in Robo2 as the character Stef. He is probably most remembered for his part in Aliens. 

RoboCop 2 was fun. The sad part, and I shouldn't probably say this, but Nancy Allen (Officer Lewis), she ruined it for me because she was so bad in the movie. 
I had all my scenes with her, she mostly got cut out of the movie, so I was cut along with her. It was a bad experience.

As much as i like some behind the scenes dirt being thrown around, i doubt that Allen's bad acting was the reason she was mostly cut from the movie. 

Full Interview (nothing more about Robo2)
https://aftermoviediner.com/feed/interviews/mark-rolston


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ChAnOoD

Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:09 pm



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As much as i like some behind the scenes dirt being thrown around, i doubt that Allen's bad acting was the reason she was mostly cut from the movie. 

I wonder if it was more "she behaved bad" than "she acted bad" on R2. If Lewis worked fine on 1 & 3 I can´t see the problem on the second one. Unless Kershner felt she did it horrible to cut her over and over on the final film.

Well, the glamourous life of making pictures... 

This is not how I see it.The the Old man is not busted, and Detroit is still plagued by crime.The ending of the original felt happier because all the bad guys got killed or busted at least.

I think tone is one of the big issues of RoboCop 2. Yes, perhaps the R2 ending is more "realistic", as people with a bunch of cash and power could go anywhere without consequences and such, but the overall tone is ugly. Even the score is!  :lol: The first one is grim, but had space for some optimistic or fun sequences. Also, and I think I said it before, I think Miller´s humour doesn´t translate well into big screen. He adds a lot of fun stuff on their comics, but that gets lost when they put it on the big screen. Maybe Kershner wasn´t the right choice to handle irony and satire on a project like this.


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Stan The Man

Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:38 am



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As much as i like some behind the scenes dirt being thrown around, i doubt that Allen's bad acting was the reason she was mostly cut from the movie. 

I wonder if it was more "she behaved bad" than "she acted bad" on R2. If Lewis worked fine on 1 & 3 I can´t see the problem on the second one. Unless Kershner felt she did it horrible to cut her over and over on the final film..

I agree it wasn't a case of acting but personal attitude behind the camera. That said I don't believe that's the reason why she got cut so much, at least not entirely.

It's been talked about elsewhere the stories of bad blood with Nancy in R2, particularly in regards to Irv Kershner. How she very much felt he treated her poorly, had a bad temper, was a huge problem and so on. While also hearing about how Nancy Allen acted like a 'diva' and displayed poor behavior herself, being contemptuous of the production. (There was also some talk of issues with Nancy even on R3, but that never seemed to have as much to them, partly because it seems she got along better with Dekker, probably moreso because she was on her way out and of course wasn't on set nearly as much)

Anyway back to R2 and this new bit here - Sounds like this adds some ammo for the 'Nancy was a diva' stance. Which I can see given what I've heard about her over time. 

But even then, again, I don't think it was all her and she got cut because of that as Rolston's statement sort-of implies. More a mixed bag - As her scenes (along with others) got cut through the process of that hellish production (remember they cut a lot of exposition and character stuff for the sake of keeping runtime down and maintaining a pace of frequent action) that made her no doubt bitter and displeased.. and unlike Weller who seems to have chalked it up more to 'it is what it is', Nancy probably made more a stink of it. Stink that she seems to have left mostly at Kersh's feet. Which whether deserved or not could have contributed to cutting her character out more as it went.. perhaps. Perhaps not. I still think the film being chopped down to emphasize action was a mostly if not fully unilateral decision without regard to anyone in particular. 

In any event I'm sorry Rolston got caught up in that cutting up as well. It's neat to hear this though. Especially since it always seemed to me he along with one or two other characters might have had - even if only slightly - bigger roles in the film that like so much else just got axed out.


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RoboPimp

Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:00 pm



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But even then, again, I don't think it was all her and she got cut because of that as Rolston's statement sort-of implies. More a mixed bag - As her scenes (along with others) got cut through the process of that hellish production (remember they cut a lot of exposition and character stuff for the sake of keeping runtime down and maintaining a pace of frequent action).

I got the trilogy on blu-ray again and watched through them all for the first time in a good while, and when watching Robo 2 I was thinking about this stuff a bit. In the past I was more leaning towards buying into the controversy and blaming Irvin Kershner for cutting her scenes. But as I watched it again I had to objectively ask: "does Lewis actually feel underused in this movie?" and the answer is no, not really. I don't know if anyone has checked the amount of screen time she has in each movie and I could be totally wrong but I feel like she did not appear in R2 much less than the first movie. She is not quite as important to the story, but unlike the first movie she is there right by Robo's side in the last scene of the movie. We all know Frank Miller's original script for RoboCop 2 was too much for one movie, and I agree that they focused on the action and a lot of character stuff was lost in the process. But RoboCop 2 does a good job of focusing on Robocop's personal vendetta against Cain, which is a fitting parallel to his arc with Boddicker in the first film. And to do that arc in each movie Robo needs to be a lone ranger and face them alone at times.

In all the films, Nancy Allen is not so much the co-star as one of the core supporting cast, alongside the Old Man and Sgt Reed. She got her brightest moment early in RoboCop 3, where we see Lewis on her own in a long and action packed sequence that did her character justice imo. I definitely have nothing but respect for Nancy Allen, and believe that she wasn't treated as well as she should have on the set of RoboCop 2. However, after reassessing the movie with fresh eyes, I don't think any offscreen drama had a negative impact on the final, at least as far Lewis is concerned. The behind the scenes shenanigans seem more apparent in other areas, but I think Lewis served her role in the film well. She may not have been at Robo's side the whole time, but she was there with him in the end.


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JohnBoyAdvance

Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:56 pm



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I think in regards to Lewis in Robocop 2, I think, while she might not have been the co-star in Robocop 1, her scenes in the second half of the movie guide Robocop towards being Murphy. And I guess you would think that the sequel would add a bit more to Lewis, probably have her kicking the shit outta someone again. But instead they kinda add and expand on characters.

While I would have liked more Lewis in Robo 2, its not the worst thing about Robo 2.


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artuditu

Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:48 pm



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When I was a kid I also felt Lewis was off-camera for too long. Although she has really cool action scenes, they were able to keep the tough cookie characterization on point.

We can also see her loyalty to Robo when he is dismantled, and it was funny how she grows increasingly frustrated with reprogrammed Robo. 

I get opinions saying there was nothing else for her to do in the plot, and it could be the deleted scenes were weak. I still feel there was more room for her having a more solid presence as a partner outside of action scenes.


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Stan The Man

Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:21 am



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I get opinions saying there was nothing else for her to do in the plot, and it could be the deleted scenes were weak. I still feel there was more room for her having a more solid presence as a partner outside of action scenes.

Word.

