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KidGoesWild
L-L3
 
Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Post Count: 663
Comment: I type it, you think it
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  Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:53 am |
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Ah, what the hell. I decided to create a new topic on that, I hope it hasnt been discussed yet.
So I strongly believe R3 ignores R2 like it never happened.
When I first saw R3 I just assumed that the RoboCain incident led to Old Man's prosecution and that he couldnt get away with it after all. I also thought that this and the payments to the families of the victims and all the legal repercussions led to the demise of OCP and the state it was in R3 (greatly falling and partially owned by Kanemitsu).
But when I rewatched R3 for the first time in ages I realized that it doesnt add up to what I always thought. First of all, the CEO spokes highly about the Old Man. He wouldnt if they would be talking about a corrupted prosecuted criminal.
Secondly, the more I think about it, the more I believe that R3 completely ingores R2 and acts like it never happened - theres no mention of Nuke (althought that can be explained by the fact that the formula for Nuke died with Hob), or any event in R2. Any. And the directive 4 is still there. Plus, in R2 its been said that a great equipment is needed to erase the directives, something that cant be done even in Robo lab. yet in R3 Marie erases directive 4 with just few things taken from the Robo lab
Now, I have two theories why it was done (if thats really the case anyway):
1. Typical hollywood move - screw story and art, just follow a formula this time. Do a movie thats more similar to the one that made more $. Paint by numbers. A kind of "sucking up to the original" situation. "it feels like something being made because someone sees a successful format, rather than something they want to say" - avrev.com
OR
2. R3 went into pre production when R2 was just hitting theaters, so the script had to be written way before that, when R2 was still shooting or even earlier. So since Dekker wrote/re-wrote the majority of it and it was written way before R2 was out, they/he didnt see or maybe even didnt know R2's story at all so continued directly from R1
Thoughts?
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Archive
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Joined: 17 Nov 2001
Post Count: 6538
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:32 pm |
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Robo3 could have done like most recent Robo products and ignored everything but the original movie. But just because they don't mention Nuke or RoboCain etc it doesn't mean Robo2 didn't happen. Some time seems to have passed between 2 and 3 so there are a lot of stuff that we never see.
Most of the odd stuff in Robo3, like the directives, i put down as bad writing. The old man was supposed to be in Robo3 but since the actor didn't have time or didn't want to they just did a quick re-write and "fixed it." Just look at the van/pimp mobile chase. How come Robo shoots and shoots and never hit anything? Did they just forgot or ignore robo's targeting system in favor of making a long and "funny" car chase?
There are a lot of errors in Robo3 and analyzing it will probably only lead to confusion and headache.
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KidGoesWild
L-L3
Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Post Count: 663
Comment: I type it, you think it
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:30 pm |
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Yeah, the whole movie IS a mess, but I think they would have at least one mention of something from R2. Plus, its not the absence of any allusions to R2 alone, its also the fact that Dekker didnt seem to like the second one and did such a shameful and plastic copy of the original. It seems like he had a chekclist of things from R1: "Bixby? check. silver armor? check. Basil? check. Directive 4? check"
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Archive
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Joined: 17 Nov 2001
Post Count: 6538
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:37 pm |
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The foot stomp in the beginning is a brief nod to Robo2 i thought, but that's pretty much it.
| KidGoesWild : | | "Bixby? check. silver armor? check. Basil? check. Directive 4? check" |
SGT Reed having a odd conversation with a suspect? *Check
Lewis blowing gum? *Check
Boardroom scene with motivation/delta city speech? *Check
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KidGoesWild
L-L3
Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Post Count: 663
Comment: I type it, you think it
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:51 pm |
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Cecil? check (not to mention the shameless ripoff of the opening scene with the suspect and the lawyer - a terrible parody)
6000 SUX? check
Building/fixing robo shown from his POV? check. Including direct ripofs with both accidental turning on and accidental screw up
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Stan The Man
Bah Concepts Division
Joined: 05 Jun 2003
Post Count: 7020
Comment: I'm the guy in Old Archive.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:39 am |
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| KidGoesWild : | | Secondly, the more I think about it, the more I believe that R3 completely ingores R2 and acts like it never happened - theres no mention of Nuke (althought that can be explained by the fact that the formula for Nuke died with Hob), or any event in R2. Any. |
Well, not really any need to give us reminders of R2, especially not on a film that's trying to give us the feel of R1.
I figure as you said, Nuke died with Cain and gang, and just fell out. Besides, hard-core drug use doesn't aid in getting a watery PG13 rating.
Other than that, well, what needs to be mentioned? Cain and his cult and drug are dead, that's that.
Robo's blue-armor? Probably replaced with the gray when he was repaired in-between the films (And again, part of the shameless linking to R1).
The Old-Man? Hell if anybody knows what happened to him, really. His not-so-negative reference doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't convicted or whatever.
Directive 4? Well, if I remember he fried out ALL his directives, it was probably re-programmed in there along with the original three when he was repaired or whatever.
As Archive said, they can ignore absolutely EVERYTHING from R2 and that doesn't mean R3 isn't continuing onward from it, or that it didn't happen at all.
| Quote: | Now, I have two theories why it was done (if thats really the case anyway):
1. Typical hollywood move - screw story and art, just follow a formula this time. Do a movie thats more similar to the one that made more $. Paint by numbers. A kind of "sucking up to the original" situation. "it feels like something being made because someone sees a successful format, rather than something they want to say" - avrev.com
OR
2. R3 went into pre production when R2 was just hitting theaters, so the script had to be written way before that, when R2 was still shooting or even earlier. So since Dekker wrote/re-wrote the majority of it and it was written way before R2 was out, they/he didnt see or maybe even didnt know R2's story at all so continued directly from R1 |
It's the first choice. Almost to a T.
Difficulty in writing the story on Dekker's part is a partial possibility, but I don't think it's a reason that holds up here - Elements of R3's story were there already, from Frank Miller's original story for R2, primarily the 'Rehabs'. That aside, a short-time frame or ignorance about R2 doesn't excuse Dekker for being sub-par in filling the rest of the story.
Point is, they wanted a sequel that would get them cash, way more than R1. When they didn't get it with R2, their clusterfuck of a brainstorm told them that what would help (in addition to a child-pandering weak-sauce PG13 rating) would be to have markers of the first movie, the one that was the best. And as been said, they're there, un-apologetically and blatantly, from Basil's only slightly re-worked score to the gray suit.
Bottom-line, R3 doesn't cancel out R2 just because it doesn't look back at any of it's particularities. Look at the Alien series, hell, every movie in the Quadrilogy does something different that ignores or dismisses part(s) of the one before it, doesn't mean they can't all still connect together.
Nothing changes the fact that R3 blows, though. 
_________________
I don't wanna pay that, PhotoBucket. Now maybe you haven't heard, but I'm the guy in old Archive. So hows about you just shit snow for a year and I'll figure out something else. Sayonara!
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KidGoesWild
L-L3
Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Post Count: 663
Comment: I type it, you think it
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:18 am |
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| Stan The Man : |
Other than that, well, what needs to be mentioned? |
Well, the top villain from R2, the Old Man, got away. I remember seeing R2 for the first time in '90 and when the credits started I cheerfully screamed "yes!!! theres gonna be another sequel!". And here comes R3 years later and the Old Man's not even in it and we dont even know what happened to him. R2 left an open ending and R3 didnt even continue it
R2 continued directly from R1 with the strike (althought it was a second one, note what they say on mediabreak - its not the one started in R1) and ED being deployed and malfunctioning.
| Quote: | | The Old-Man? Hell if anybody knows what happened to him, really. His not-so-negative reference doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't convicted or whatever. |
But I think the CEO would be ashamed by someone who was convicted. He seemed rather proud saying their former chairman had a dream.
| Quote: | | Directive 4? Well, if I remember he fried out ALL his directives, it was probably re-programmed in there along with the original three when he was repaired or whatever. |
Repairs like this can be done in the lab at the police station, he only had damage done to the external body armor. Besides, Directive 4 wasnt present at all in R2
| Quote: | | Look at the Alien series, hell, every movie in the Quadrilogy does something different that ignores or dismisses part(s) of the one before it, doesn't mean they can't all still connect together. |
Yeah, but they were direct continuations, each starting with the last scene of the previous one, and each and one of them still mentioned the events from the previous installment
| Quote: | | Nothing changes the fact that R3 blows, though. |
Amen!
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Stan The Man
Bah Concepts Division
Joined: 05 Jun 2003
Post Count: 7020
Comment: I'm the guy in Old Archive.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:09 pm |
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| KidGoesWild : | | Stan The Man : |
Other than that, well, what needs to be mentioned? |
Well, the top villain from R2, the Old Man, got away. I remember seeing R2 for the first time in '90 and when the credits started I cheerfully screamed "yes!!! theres gonna be another sequel!". And here comes R3 years later and the Old Man's not even in it and we dont even know what happened to him. R2 left an open ending and R3 didnt even continue it
R2 continued directly from R1 with the strike (althought it was a second one, note what they say on mediabreak - its not the one started in R1) and ED being deployed and malfunctioning. |
I get what ya mean, I personally never got the feeling R3 canceled out R2, though you make good enough points where I can understand that line of thought, and since both TV series afterward also only show a continuance onward from R1, it's not a unreasonable line of thought, either.
As for the 'Old Man', that's nothing but a can of worms that's been dumped out before. In any case, there's no evidence the Old Man 'got away with it', that's only your construction on that point, which you yourself cancel out, stating, 'We don't know what happened to him.' Indeed, we don't know what happened. He very well could have 'got away with it', then again he could have been caught and be rotting in jail somewhere, he could have died, he could have gone back to the future for all we know. All I do know is that if anyone can give us an official, concrete answer, I'll kiss their ass.
I myself think he did 'get away with it', but I think it's more a type of exile, that he's just gone away and probably died, rather than relaxing in the Bahamas or something.
Frankly, R3 not flushing out what happened post-R2 is hardly one of it's biggest flaws.
| Kid : | | Quote: | | The Old-Man? Hell if anybody knows what happened to him, really. His not-so-negative reference doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't convicted or whatever. |
But I think the CEO would be ashamed by someone who was convicted. He seemed rather proud saying their former chairman had a dream. |
Well, you're talking about the head of a company who owned a major city and treated it like a vacant lot, a company that held the dollar higher than public safety, civil rights, and human life itself - A company who was using ruthless mercenaries to destroy a neighborhood, displace people, and more-or-less kill anyone who stood in their way. The same company that allowed RoboCAIN to be created, who allowed the police force to go on strike, who shrugged off the brutal murder of an employee in their own boardroom, etc. etc.
Of course they're proud of any idea that would help them make money and better exert their power, and probably not that disappointed of the former company leader who thought it up.
| KGW : | | Quote: | | Directive 4? Well, if I remember he fried out ALL his directives, it was probably re-programmed in there along with the original three when he was repaired or whatever. |
Repairs like this can be done in the lab at the police station, he only had damage done to the external body armor. Besides, Directive 4 wasnt present at all in R2 |
We don't see Directive 4, mainly 'cause it's not a plot device in R2 like it is in R1 and R3 - doesn't mean it isn't there anyway. But in the R3, it IS a plot device (another shameless R1 re-use, actually), so that's why it's there. And in the universe of the movie, again, I'm sure it was added by OCP (Who no doubt figured out Robo had fried the directives from R2), to help keep their 'product' in-line, since they had to put the first three back in there anyway.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Look at the Alien series, hell, every movie in the Quadrilogy does something different that ignores or dismisses part(s) of the one before it, doesn't mean they can't all still connect together. |
Yeah, but they were direct continuations, each starting with the last scene of the previous one, and each and one of them still mentioned the events from the previous installment |
Bah, a continuation doesn't HAVE to start right where the previous film left off, in fact, most of them don't. Nor do they even have to reference all, part or even anything at all from the prior. Of course, those kinds of sequels tend to suck ass, and R3 ain't no exception.
Again, 'disregard' I think is a bit strong a word for R3, for me anyway, and I wouldn't say that it was the case. R3 might have some disconnection from R2, but saying it 'ignores' R2 is maybe a bit much.
Just what I think, of course.
_________________
I don't wanna pay that, PhotoBucket. Now maybe you haven't heard, but I'm the guy in old Archive. So hows about you just shit snow for a year and I'll figure out something else. Sayonara!
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Archive
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Joined: 17 Nov 2001
Post Count: 6538
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:14 pm |
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| KidGoesWild : | | But I think the CEO would be ashamed by someone who was convicted. He seemed rather proud saying their former chairman had a dream. |
They blamed it all on Dr Faxx. I thought that was EXTREMELY clear at the end of R2?
I very much doubt that the old man could be convicted of any crime of OCP, he's to high up on the chain and there are always minions to blame it on.
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Stan The Man
Bah Concepts Division
Joined: 05 Jun 2003
Post Count: 7020
Comment: I'm the guy in Old Archive.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:37 pm |
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^ Oh yeah, that too.
Well, as the wise man above me said anyway...
| Archive : | | There are a lot of errors in Robo3 and analyzing it will probably only lead to confusion and headache. |
_________________
I don't wanna pay that, PhotoBucket. Now maybe you haven't heard, but I'm the guy in old Archive. So hows about you just shit snow for a year and I'll figure out something else. Sayonara!
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Archive
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Joined: 17 Nov 2001
Post Count: 6538
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:41 am |
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| KidGoesWild : | | "Bixby? check. silver armor? check. Basil? check. Directive 4? check" |
We also have the "cracked visor with the visible eye" thing towards the end. Although it is handled VERY poorly as most viewers don't even see it. Either way, it is a blatant copy of the first movie.
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RoboFan_93
Would Buy You For a Dollar
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Post Count: 4167
Comment: Scumbags see the judge on Monday morning
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 7:18 am |
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| Archive : | | KidGoesWild : | | "Bixby? check. silver armor? check. Basil? check. Directive 4? check" |
We also have the "cracked visor with the visible eye" thing towards the end. Although it is handled VERY poorly as most viewers don't even see it. Either way, it is a blatant copy of the first movie. |
Cracked visor in R3? When was that  ?
I've always considered R3 to have a closer feel to R1, than R2 did. The second one was a very good action movie, but not such a good sequel. R3 tried (and failed) to give Murphy a more humane side by having the relationship with Nikko. It didn't work out, did it? It does however make R3 a better movie than it would have been without those moments and the references to R1. If it wasn't for them we would have had just an attempt to get lots of money - we already got that with R2. And although R2 is still better than 3 I still think 3 had more effort put into it to be a less violent homage to R1. I don't think it ignored R2. Just tried not to look like it.
Actually, just about everything in the Robo franchise ignores something else:
1. The Marvel cartoon I thought was in continuity with the first movie, until Clarance Boddiker showed up towards the end.
2. The series - I know they changed the names due to copyright problems and stuff like that, but we could assume it's a sequel to R2 and leave R3 out of the picture, or have it take place between the two.
3. Alpha Commando ignores everything from what I've seen from the show.
4. PD - It doesn't really feel like a sequel to R1 only. It could easily be sequel to R2 as well...but PD is bad, so I try to ignore it.
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KidGoesWild
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Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Post Count: 663
Comment: I type it, you think it
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:16 am |
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| Stan The Man : |
As for the 'Old Man', that's nothing but a can of worms that's been dumped out before. In any case, there's no evidence the Old Man 'got away with it', that's only your construction on that point, which you yourself cancel out, stating, 'We don't know what happened to him.' Indeed, we don't know what happened. He very well could have 'got away with it', then again he could have been caught and be rotting in jail somewhere, he could have died, he could have gone back to the future for all we know. All I do know is that if anyone can give us an official, concrete answer, I'll kiss their ass. |
Well, Im pretty sure he did got away with it. Otherwise there would be some kind of metion about it. The CEO, while clumsy abd dumb, seemed like a fair man. Dont forget he never got out of line and never really did anything evil. he was just a dumbass who was being pushed around and stepped forward when found out that rehabs are fighting against cops. He seemed like a generaly good character. He wouldnt even mentioned someone who would be prosecuted. Someone like that would surely become a disgrace to the company
| Quote: | | KGW : | | Quote: | | Directive 4? Well, if I remember he fried out ALL his directives, it was probably re-programmed in there along with the original three when he was repaired or whatever. |
Repairs like this can be done in the lab at the police station, he only had damage done to the external body armor. Besides, Directive 4 wasnt present at all in R2 |
We don't see Directive 4, mainly 'cause it's not a plot device in R2 like it is in R1 and R3 - doesn't mean it isn't there anyway. |
I still dont know R2 and R3 enough to quote it, but didnt his directives show up when he was on his way to atack the Nuke factory? There was no directive 4 (if im not mistaken)
| Quote: | | Again, 'disregard' I think is a bit strong a word for R3, for me anyway, and I wouldn't say that it was the case. R3 might have some disconnection from R2, but saying it 'ignores' R2 is maybe a bit much. |
Well the main thing that sparked that idea in me was Dekker ignoring R2 in his interviews. Sometimes it felt akward and forced.
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KidGoesWild
L-L3
Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Post Count: 663
Comment: I type it, you think it
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:17 am |
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| Archive : | | KidGoesWild : | | But I think the CEO would be ashamed by someone who was convicted. He seemed rather proud saying their former chairman had a dream. |
They blamed it all on Dr Faxx. I thought that was EXTREMELY clear at the end of R2?
I very much doubt that the old man could be convicted of any crime of OCP, he's to high up on the chain and there are always minions to blame it on. |
Yeah, but if thats the case, it creates more problems. So did they succeed in putting all the blame on Faxx? And if they did, what happened to the Old Man then? Leaving out the top chief villain out when the last movie left his story open ended was a huge head scratcher
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RoboCop 3 ignored and disregarded RoboCop 2?
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