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Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 3:45 pm Reply with quote

yeah but if that was the intention they could have spelled it out. Have Cain taunt the police with some radio speech or what not.

For the first movie I always thought Boddickers final shot in the was the "coupe the grace". He even says something like -Okay, fun's over and then shot's him straight in the head. That's a 100% intended kill imo. The fault there is Lewis. The gang leave her both as a lose end and as a prime witness for some reason.


But to stay on topic the good part about the disassembly scene is that it highlights that Robocop can be in a lot of pain. Touching on the same discomfort level as the kill of Murphy in R1. The hero completely helpless and sadistic criminals toying around. But Alex Murphy showed much bravery and defiance in that scene in R1 while in R2, as discussed, Robocop more or less just lies down and takes it because of the damage. I agree the scene had been better if Robocop struggled against the chains/magnet with the very last of his power.




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Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 6:09 pm Reply with quote

I would've at least liked to see them prying off the helmet.

And definitely more angie, hell the entire movie needed more angie




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Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 9:31 pm Reply with quote

I've been tinkering to create a topic about this subject for a long time now, but I saw this topic bumped and remembered that I already replied to great detail in this topic, but mostly about the filming mistakes they made in the movie.

I just want to establish one more time how the dismemberment scenes messed me up for life.

Like most of you I was just a little kid when the first RoboCop movie came out. Although I remember all too well me and my brother being too scared to watch the Murphy killing and to a lesser extent zombie-Emil, it was still our favorite movie and RoboCop was our favorite character.

I still remember being in some videostore or shop and it had a copy of Robo2. On the back of the case was a picture of a dismembered RoboCop (with a comment saying "RoboCop is almost defeated") and a picture of Lewis in front of RoboCain. I asked my brother if he thought this badass looking robot was the reason RoboCop was "almost defeated".

I can't remember how stoked I was when Robo2 aired on the television for the first time, but needless to say the whole family gathered round to watch more ass-kicking from our cyborg hero.

I vaguely remember my mother saying something like "that's so sad" at the sight of dumped RoboCop parts, and I think I responded with "ah they'll fix him anyways" at that age already figuring out that the movie (and entire franchise!) would end right there and then if Robo would seriously die.

At the end of the movie my brother asked how I liked the movie, me replying that RoboCain was pretty much the coolest thing ever, and we both agreed that everything else prior to that in the movie was forgettable.

But the damage had been done. Damage to my mind. RoboCop 3. RoboCop the Series. RoboCop the Cartoon. Every friggin single episode. I was DEAD afraid something like this would happen to RoboCop again. That the badguys would capture him and tear him apart.

I now realise that RoboCop being damaged is one of the most recurring plots scriptwriters came up with for the character, and being as over the top as Robo2 is, the movie pretty much made "RoboCop is damaged" as extreme as you can get. It couldn't get any worse than what Cain's gang did to him. Regardless, I was still afraid that everytime I watched a new episode RoboCop would go through a similar experience.

Afterwards, for years, I avoided Robo2 as the plague. Whenever I saw in the TV magazine that Robo2 would air, I would get creeped out and scared shitless that my brother or parents would accidentally tune in and watch it, where as I would basically have to hide in my room, with my hands on my ears going LALALA this isn't happening.

Eventually there almost wouldn't go a day by that I wasn't thinking about the dismemberment. Eventually growing older and with Youtube at hand, I decided to brace myself and watch this scene once again, facing my demons if you will. I guess I have to say it wasn't as bad as it had gotten in my mind. Like I posted earlier in this topic, I tried to "lessen" the impact of the dismemberment, by viewing it from a movie making view. Hence my nitpicking of all the errors. While watching the scenes I noticed this and that mistake, which kinda reset my mind into a "see it's just a movie scene made by movie makers" standpoint.

Still. I'm not healed. Without this scene, I would still be a RoboCop junkie. I would have RoboCop posters on the walls, RoboCop figures displayed, and all that good stuff. I do like RoboCain, so I do own the Kotobukiya RoboCain, but I don't display it, I keep it hidden deep away. Why? Because it reminds me of RoboCop 2. Which in turn reminds me to RoboCop being chained to a table getting taken apart brutally. I still like the first RoboCop movie, but in secret.

When I lie on bed with my eyes closed, I automatically start to think about RoboCop strapped to a table. I imagine ways they could have improved the plot (have Lewis and a police squad track RoboCop down with the location tracker and free him from Cain's gang) and I imagine ways in which they could have gone totally gore and make RoboCop 2 into a total horror gore fest (Cain wants priority in his gang removing RoboCop's helmet. Upon doing so, Cain climbs on the table and sits on RoboCop's chest. He takes a stiletto knife out of his jacket. From RoboCop's point of view we see Cain maniacally cut, carve and stab into RoboCop's face, as the screen fills red. When RoboCop's remains are dumped in front of the police station, the display is too horrific to type out. Somehow RoboCop's brain survives and with movie magic and the power of science-fixes-everything, RoboCop gets better anyhow.)

So that's how it stands today. Here I am, 29 years old, typing this out. No longer horrorfied of the dismantling scenes, but as a young kid, it left a scar behind to this day. I try to laugh at RoboCop2 for all it's plotholes and errors and mistakes to soften the impact it once did to me, but as you can tell, it's still with me. RoboCop as a character has been defiled to me. Whenever I see RoboCop, I see him strapped to a table ready to nearly die.

I've been wanting to type something like this out for a very long time. Seeing this topic bumped made me try this opportunity. I'll probably get laughed at and flamed and the reason this topic goes to hell, but I care for one thing. That typing this out is another step towards healing.

Peace.




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Posted: Wed May 29, 2013 9:24 pm Reply with quote

I think I would've liked the original idea of the car building robots taking apart robocop.



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Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:09 pm Reply with quote

I came up with something that would have worked wonders for this dismemberment plot.

What's the one important thing from RoboCop 1 that is strangely missing in RoboCop 2?

Directive 4.

Faxx would have in secret added Cain to the database of OCP officers.

When RoboCop starts aiming at Cain when apprehending him, he experiences the same ... troubles as when he did with Jones. Since in the first movie this chain of events is pretty much interrupted by a pissed off ED-209, we never get to see fully what directive 4 is capable of. Since Cain doesn't have a pet ED-209 barging in, RoboCop experiences a shutdown while he keeps trying with all his might to grab Cain by the neck. From a RoboCop point of view we see him ... poof ... shut down.

When next RoboCop boots up and wakes up, he's magically chained to a workbench, with one of Cain's crooks shouting like "Cain, he woke up!" and Cain and gang come walking in.

Now they start to torture and destroy RoboCop pretty much unchanged from as in the movie, but now it would make a lot more sense why they don't kill him off and why they drop his parts off at the police station. With directive 4 in place, RoboCop can't do anything to Cain...

Maybe you can see where this is going by now ...

After being dismembered, RoboCop is ofcourse repaired (over 1 night it always seems like to me) and gets the junkload of silly directives, crippling him even further. But then ...

RoboCop electrocutes himself and erases all of his directives.

Payback time!

Imagine Cain's surprise when RoboCop leads the cop squad into Cain's hideout and starts firing away. With directive 4 out of the picture, RoboCop can finally take down Cain.

Only for Cain to transform into an invincible stop-motion puppet. But that's for another time!




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Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:32 pm Reply with quote

Quite interesting, Maxlee. Certainly sounds a bit more plausible then just RoboCop going in bold as brass and then getting inexplicably owned with little to no fighting back (which I agree is something I hate that did start with R2). Of course, he's RoboCop so I would have expected nothing less than going on with all bravado - after all, it's sorta what he did when he was Murphy anyway.

Still wouldn't explain why the other striking cops would join Robo later, but, that too is another story. tongue

Anyway, I can understand why that scene left such a big shock on you. I get it, none of us wanted to see Robo like that, especially after what happened in the first movie (you could say it's a parallel), but I always knew eventually 'they'll fix him' and they indeed did, and after a slight interlude, Robo went back to business.

Interestingly enough, we never seen him totally dismembered anywhere else (not that I can recall), The other times, he's knocked down, and then blown up and just frame/body damaged, maybe lost a limb or something, but never full broken down like that again.
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Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:14 pm Reply with quote

There is one instance where I remember RoboCop getting damaged more than in RoboCop 2: the 4 part RoboCop versus The Terminator comic book series. If I remember correctly, some spider-ish tentacle Terminator robot that was sent back to the present time battles RoboCop and succeeds in beheading him. This because Skynet needs RoboCop's man/machine thingamabob so that it can kickstart itself. Or something.

But yeah Stan The Man, ofcourse it's the principle of the whole thing, as in my opinion, only an insane writer would come up with the idea of having RoboCop strapped to a table and getting globberstomped into pieces. I mean what's up with that? Ofcourse our "hero" getting captured is a standard trope for storytelling, but isn't it usually the case that the sidekick (Lewis?) would rescue the hero, or our hero has some hidden gadget to free himself (data spike? left leg holster?). How many times were Batman and James Bond captured and tied up by the badguy and able to free themselves one way or another? Did they ever just get cut up in pieces and ditched for scrap?

Then there's the whole execution of the thing. Hob magically shoots some magically correctly placed super-machinegun which shoots off Robo's hand in like 3 shots. Then, my personal most annoying one, Angie fires an unexplained sci-fi looking weaponthing that seems to exist for only one purpose: to zap cyborgs. Where does the weapon come from? Then there's the magical crane to the head followed by the conveniently quick and in time car magnet.

It's like they took the most annoyingly wrong ways to damage RoboCop. No Cobra Bazooka to the wrist. No ED-209 to the face. No landmine that blows his legs off. No anti-armor grenade that hits him precisely in the right spot. No, his hand gets shot off by what would seem weaponry he shrugged off in RoboCop 1, an unexplained weapon that shocks him, and then conveniently placed industrial machinery that hits him precisely where it needs to.

If all that wasn't enough, it's followed up by the well known plothole of "Why didn't Cain & gang kill RoboCop off when they had the chance", which in my opinion is just sloppy storytelling.

I know a lot of RoboCop 2 defenders will hit me on the head, and will fire off their counters of "Cain had a trap set up for RoboCop", "Cain wants to taunt RoboCop and the police" and "a movie should not have to tell you everything" but for me it's just sloppy storywriting, when, most importantly, a whole ton of smarter ideas could have been written instead.

I often compare this dismemberment ordeal with the likes of KITT from Knightrider and Johnny 5 from Short Circuit 2. KITT was damaged near death a couple of times, and most of the time this was taken as a very big deal. In one episode, KITT, after nearly being destroyed for good, is traumatised and is scared to continue doing his usual heroic schtick. Johnny 5 was sort of dismembered in a similar matter, and the rest of the movie was spent how Johnny 5 was effectively dying and had to capture the badguy before he would die completely. And those examples aren't mature movies like RoboCop, they're children shows!

As for RoboCop 2 ?? Well they hang him on some wires, stare at him for 1 scene, and 3 scenes later he's repaired on a table and the whole event is never spoken of again. I mean what? Our main character was almost killed for frikkin' good! He spends like 2 scenes in Robo-limbo-coma and then he's suddenly repaired. I mean seriously. How more interesting would it have been if RoboCop was like traumatised too and/or scared of Cain or something? I mean anything? Then he gets the crazy directives, fries himself, captures the badguy, battles a cyborg and ends on a note that we are all human. For something that pretty much traumatised me for life, and as far as I can tell, atleast left an impression on most of you guys, it's pretty disconnecting that nobody in the movie seems shocked about it that our hero was almost no more.

That's just what bugs me so much. It just happens. And then nothing. Our main character kicks some ass here and there, shoots some baddies, some OCP lawyer is making him feel sad and stuff and then ... RoboCop gets dismantled to near death. That should be pretty huge you know. But no, 3 scenes later and everything is fine again and it's comedy time with the crazy directives. Pfff. That's what I mean when I always call RoboCop 2 a clipshow. A clipshow of things just happening and either not getting resolved at all or just pushed aside like, welp that was that ... now for THIS!




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Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:09 pm Reply with quote

Maxlee :
Johnny 5 was sort of dismembered in a similar matter, and the rest of the movie was spent how Johnny 5 was effectively dying and had to capture the badguy before he would die completely. And those examples aren't mature movies like RoboCop, they're children shows!


That scene was pretty graphic for a child movie. I remember when I saw it when I was a child and I was pretty disgusted by that scene. Was... Nasty. I always asked to myself if that was a nod to Robo 2 or something (but it looks the sequel of Short Circuit came first).

Looks like I really care more for robots or cyborgs than humans tongue




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Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:29 am Reply with quote

True about the RvsT comic, I was thinking of moving media so I missed that. Even so I think that was the only other instance.

Much as I love and care for R2, I will be the first to agree with you that story and narrative-wise, it's a total mess. After seeing some of those deleted scenes from the workprint, leaving some of those in there might have added a little bit of cohesion to the whole thing. Not much, but a bit. Oh well.

Back to topic, I always wonder (on occasion) how RoboCop is actually built in the sense he could be taken apart, from a maintenance standpoint. There are obvious showings - removal of the helmet, showing a whole replacement leg in an episode of the Series, the wrist twisting off in R3, but other parts aren't shown. And some pieces it isn't clear how they would attach/detach and such. I suppose a fair bit of it could be internal connections only but what about others? Yeah I know in actuality it's not something that can be explored much as it's actually a suit, but still something I ponder here and there.
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Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:12 am Reply with quote

This reminds me of a scene in my Johnny-5 erotic fanfic...
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Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:23 am Reply with quote

I'd like to read that......... Don't look at me like that!

I agree though, that scene in Short Circuit 2 where Johnny 5 gets destroyed is sad to watch, I mean he's begging for his life and is defenceless. The scenes of him limping about and trying to do the right thing before dying are also sad. But remember this, Johnny is an $11m military robot designed to be able to withstand desert and jungle habitats and take on human soldiers. He was easily overpowered and then all it took was an axe and a crowbar to seriously fuck him up. If he was supposed to be so tough and withstand gunfire during a war (and he did get shot in the first movie) then why were some garden shed tools all that was required to practically kill him in SC 2? Why didn't he fight back instead of just lying there and taking it? Why did Robo not at least try and fight back or cover his ass in some form during the attack from Cain and his gang? He stood still after the initial attack and let everything happen to him instead of trying to find cover or even getting out of the building. Their gunfire was mostly ineffective against him, so he could have easily ran out of the building or overpowered one of them, took their gun and used it against the rest of them.

Perhaps (and this is just my over-active mind here!) getting the same hand shot off twice caused some sort of brain freeze in Murphy's mind which is why he stood there, shook and held the stump in disbelief pretty much what he did in the first movie as a human. By the time the electricity snapped him out of it and he started to retaliate it was too late.
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Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:47 am Reply with quote

I think you're missing some suicidal undertone in Robo's motivation at that particular moment, I've always had the feeling he just let himself go, he doesn't fight back as much as he could, there is some kind of internal struggle between dying at last or fulfilling his duty against crime and nuke, and to me it's not a hole in the screenplay at all, it actually connects with Murphy renouncing to his wife and family some scenes before (after behaving almost like a stalker!)

The movie starts with deep psychological undertones, and Cain not killing Robo but making him suffer (a second crucifixion) just reinforces his personality as a messiah obsessed with symbols and metaphors, and not a rational person that would not pass the chance to kill Robo. In fact I think he feels sorry for him, "I don't blame you. They program you, and you do it".

The problem is the movie underdeveloping Robo's character after his reprogramming and chasing Cain. The story develops well enough all the storylines about the city Mayor and OCP takeover of the city, Cain becoming R2 through Faxx, Hob and Angie trying to rule the "family" business. It's just Robo that completely disappears until the end, when he just acts as an action hero to stop R2, his motivations and character development are null at the end.
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Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:08 pm Reply with quote

artuditu :
I think you're missing some suicidal undertone in Robo's motivation at that particular moment, I've always had the feeling he just let himself go, he doesn't fight back as much as he could, there is some kind of internal struggle between dying at last or fulfilling his duty against crime and nuke, and to me it's not a hole in the screenplay at all, it actually connects with Murphy renouncing to his wife and family some scenes before (after behaving almost like a stalker!)

The movie starts with deep psychological undertones, and Cain not killing Robo but making him suffer (a second crucifixion) just reinforces his personality as a messiah obsessed with symbols and metaphors, and not a rational person that would not pass the chance to kill Robo. In fact I think he feels sorry for him, "I don't blame you. They program you, and you do it".

The problem is the movie underdeveloping Robo's character after his reprogramming and chasing Cain. The story develops well enough all the storylines about the city Mayor and OCP takeover of the city, Cain becoming R2 through Faxx, Hob and Angie trying to rule the "family" business. It's just Robo that completely disappears until the end, when he just acts as an action hero to stop R2, his motivations and character development are null at the end.


I absolutely agree with this post.


Plus I think that the sexy Angie's electro gun device was enough to drain Robo's energy, if they did in fact get the weapon from Dr. Faxx like the deleted scenes would've suggested then it was technically enough to stop or partially stop Robocop and it worked. He was out of energy and could barely stand up, he was internally in worse condition than he was when he left the OCP building, plus who knows how much damage losing his right hand has caused seeing as how his data spike was in that hand, that and the fluids splurting out of the stump.

Not only that but he was hit in the face with a giant hook from a crane.

I hear things like maybe the magnet fried his internal wires and cpu but I don't know if that's true. Like for a second after the magnet is retracting off of Robo's body you can see him weakly move his arms against his restraints but nothing more.

Honestly it's weird that his body puts up more of a fight when they're detached , I.E. his legs and hands and arms.




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Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:09 pm Reply with quote

I dunno, maybe it's just me looking for the simplest explanation to things, but I always thought the reason he didn't fight back during that scene was because he just got jolted with who knows how many volts of electricity. First in his chest, then he uses all his strength to rip that claw off, then sticks it in his "open wound" where the hand got blown off, which i'm sure didn't help the situation.

EDIT: Chaos and I posted pretty much the same thing at the same time, lol.




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