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Stan The Man
Bah Concepts Division
 
Joined: 05 Jun 2003
Post Count: 7026
Comment: I'm the guy in Old Archive.
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  Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 5:54 pm |
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| artuditu : | Thinking about the budget and how brighter R2 looks (while being darker in tone), most of us we have always liked the beginning and the end (coincidentally they happen at night) while we have troubles with all the middle (coincidentally a lot of the middle parts happen in open day light scenes, giving the film a bit more of TV-movie look). It has always been known that darkness and night makes cheap films look better, and even if R2 was not cheap I think it looked too much like a present day city with a robot in the middle of it. I think R1 was way smarter in giving the feel of a near-future city, not really showing too much of it, but capturing your imagination with the longshots of futuristic looking skycrappers and its elevators (which, by the way, were completely absent from R2, we only see something like it with the Delta City miniature in RoboCain presentation). R2 Detroit is just too plain and normal, while R1 with some little touches it could pretend to be more than just what you see (and with a smaller budget).
And yet, wanting to prove that R2 has more open day-light scenes than R1, I realized it probably doesn't, but I came to an interesting conclusion, it's not about the quantity of day/night but how it was used. In R1 daylight is linked to Murphy/humanity, first when he is human (when he presents himself at the police department we had a daylight shot outside, when he is with Lewis talking about twirling his gun, when they confront Clarence's gang), and then when his humanity is awakening in Robo, that is when he visits his home at Primrose Lane and all the end after he takes off his helmet and he is Murphy again. And you could even include that TV new break clip where he is puzzled by children (as you could see a human/life connection there).
The night starts when Murphy is brought to the hospital and dies. Then when he is presented in the police department it is night time, and when he goes patrolling his first missions it is night time too. As well as when he confronts Emil at the gas station. It may look random to you but I think it isn't at all, when he is a conciousless golem, guardian of the streets, it is mostly during the open night.
An interesting shot is when he goes to the OCP tower to arrest Dick Jones, it looks like a sunset sky, probably an artistic choice to advance the troubles, but also it could be a proof that he is in between two worlds, in a transition, machine and human, he is going to suffer a second death as a machine and reborn as a human, his conciousness finally emerging. |
| ChAnOoD : | Interesting, artuditu. The original flick never stop to show more interesting touches over and over  |
Well said guys and I concur - The day sequences in R2 are a bit jarring, they have scant feeling of being out of place in such a generally harsh film. Unlike R1 which, while rough, still had that flicker of metaphorical 'light' in it with Murphy's reclamation of his humanity - There's a warmness in R1 that is absent in R2, and I agree, that makes any 'bright' scenes feel just a tad off. Artu hit it, much of the best sequences in R2 are those that take place in darker environments. Again, this is more a minor thing for me but still..
I also agree there's not quite as much a 'futuristic' aesthetic to the background in R2 like there was in R1.. it's still kinda there, but not on the same level. For me R3 is even worse in that regard, mainly because it was deliberate, but that's another thing.
As for R1 looking better if it had R2-level budget, I'm sure it would, but I think the feeling behind that tone and look would be little if at all different. I still think R2 looks real good, even stunning in spots, but I will concede that cleaner and sharper look adds to certain spots in the film and perhaps subtracts from others. As I said though, I like how much sharper R2 is, overall it is quite nice looking.
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ChAnOoD
DC-L4
Joined: 29 Dec 2008
Post Count: 2798
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| Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 7:34 pm |
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| Stan The Man : | | Well said guys and I concur - The day sequences in R2 are a bit jarring, they have scant feeling of being out of place in such a generally harsh film. Unlike R1 which, while rough, still had that flicker of metaphorical 'light' in it with Murphy's reclamation of his humanity - There's a warmness in R1 that is absent in R2, and I agree, that makes any 'bright' scenes feel just a tad off. |
I think that´s a very big point that the people who keep doing Robo stories forgot. Robo 2 looks more "nasty", while Robo 3 was more "correct" and "safe". It´s hard to keep the balance right.
As for people liking the beginning and the end of the film, I think that happens because well, it was done pretty nice. The beginning, from the humor of the MagnaVolt (a little more darker than the ads on the first one) to Robo stopping the robbery and going to the drug hideout was pretty good. And the end, while at points it gets cartoony and over the top (remember the noises Cain and Robo make while they´re falling from the building; I can see Cain with a Willy signal with an "OOPS!" written on it), was nicely done, with fine stop motion action, a satisfying end to Cain (destroying the brain) and a dark humour ending with Robo´s "We´re only human" while he´s fixing the helmet. But what happens between is a mixed bag of interesting ideas and funny ones that didn´t get too well.
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Meriandressial
Sgt-L1
schitsophrenk
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
Post Count: 183
Comment: Victory Goes To The Bold And The Wise
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| Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 8:54 pm |
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Its been ages since I saw it.
But Cain never impressed me. He seemed stupid.
The whole concept seemed stupid.
The ED209 in 1 is pretty straightforward. Big robot, lacks important skills.
But they didnt go all out to make ED209s stupid. They did'nt like, make the worlds crappest AI, then put it in partially finished, while emping it.
Cain is like, WTF?! Why the bouncing fuck would you use a psychopath drug addict to make a POLICE AUGMENTED BEING?!
Its not even like they used a security guard, or a soldier or something. Or a average man.
Someone on the good side.
A psycho drug addict is hardly going to enforce the law is he!
Hob was moronic.
It was pretty bad, all said.
One thing that jars badly is the whole leave his wife thing.
The first film, he does anyhting he can to escape, find the truth.
Not a man whos ever going to let ianything stop him.
So you think. Well of course he'll find his wife and son.
Next time, all out to find them.
Nope.
As I remember, it has signs theyll be back together. Right up to WTF?
Its clearly a vampire diaries drama dragout.
Named because vampire diaries drags the drama and relationship etc stuff out to insane and desperate levels.
Anyhting to cause pain and torture the characters and avoid doing anyhting.
Elena has been failing to choose between Damon and Stefan EVER SINCE IT STARTED!
Oh, whata a choice. Sexy damon or soppy Stefan. PICK DAMON YOU MORON! OR PICK SOMEONE ELSE! BNUT PICK SOMEONE!!!!!! FFS!!!!!
And they kept doing over diferent versions too.
Bloody stupid.
The only time they ever explained it a bit or gave reasons was Prime Directives.
Were it unfolds he has low self esteem and thinks hes not good enough, etc.
And that he has a lot of programming. Which means he does'nt talk as well as he could.
So you can see why he did'nt find his family.
A really tiny bit. Still makes no sense.
Still a VDDD.
It's really out of character for him.
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ChAnOoD
DC-L4
Joined: 29 Dec 2008
Post Count: 2798
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| Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 10:56 pm |
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| Meriandressial : | One thing that jars badly is the whole leave his wife thing.
The first film, he does anyhting he can to escape, find the truth.
Not a man whos ever going to let ianything stop him. |
While I agree that Cain would be a bad idea for a cyborg law enforcerer, I don´t dislike the Murph/Ellen conflict. I prefer him letting his wife go, watching his actual condition, instead of the "hey, I´m a cyborg, but I´m going home with my beautiful wife and my cute kid!" situation on the RebootCop. 
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Stan The Man
Bah Concepts Division
Joined: 05 Jun 2003
Post Count: 7026
Comment: I'm the guy in Old Archive.
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| Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 2:22 am |
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Meriandressial, your shit, as usual, makes no damn sense and is all over the place - 1) He certainly does find his family in R2, don't know what the hell you mean by saying he doesn't. If you mean he doesn't reunite with his family, well, it is certainly implied, if not gone over outright, why that is the case, why he doesn't go back to them and live happily ever after. I don't particularly like how it was gone about in the film (see below), but it really is the better path to take, lest you have endless 'drama' like you were mentioning (or whatever, anyway). 2) It was explained why regular cops weren't viable candidates for the Robo2 project. I agree going from that to Cain is ridiculous but they did make a sort of explanation of that in the film, even if said explanation left a lot to be desired.
Of course you said you haven't seen it in ages. To which I say, again, it might help if you watch the film again 'cause until then frankly you're little better than talking out your ass. I submit this is reinforced by you near-derailing your own post with some crap about Vampire Diaries of all goddamned things.
| ChAnOoD : | | While I agree that Cain would be a bad idea for a cyborg law enforcerer, I don´t dislike the Murph/Ellen conflict. I prefer him letting his wife go, watching his actual condition, instead of the "hey, I´m a cyborg, but I´m going home with my beautiful wife and my cute kid!" situation on the RebootCop. |
^ As do I - I still think the deal could have been gone about better in R2. This bit elaborates it as well as I ever could -
| RoboCop 2 - Narrative Problems - #1 : | RoboCop 2 introduces yet never satisfactorily resolves Murphy’s despair over his estrangement from his wife and son. We see him actually meet with his wife once, but he quickly sends her away, parroting the company line that he’s “just a machine” given him moments earlier by the *sshole lawyer guy from OCP. Many folks still seem a tad perplexed as to why Murphy would do this, but it’s always seemed rather sensible to me. Murphy, at this moment, is at his lowest, believing that he has nothing left to offer his family and that what is best for them is to believe that he’s dead and to move on with their lives.
A very noble -- although clearly downbeat -- thing for Murphy to do.
However, the problem, from a storytelling standpoint, with this is that you simply can’t tackle an item as big and emotionally wrenching as Murphy’s Angst Over His Estrangement From His Family and then effectively do nothing with it. I can tell you that when I first saw RoboCop 2, I fully expected to see Murphy’s wife and son reenter the narrative fray at some point in the film. Perhaps near the middle of the movie, or at the end, at least. Perhaps they’d find themselves in harm’s way somehow, caught in the crossfire between the cops and Cain’s Nuke Cartel maybe. Murphy would have to rush in to save them, thus forcing a final, no-questions-left-unanswered resolution between he and his family. When that didn’t happen, I remember feeling cheated and confused. “Why even bring this issue up again if they were gonna basically leave it where it had been left at the end of the first movie,” I recall asking myself in a darkened movie theater back in 1990. And to this day, I still don’t have an answer to that question. |
But even then, I too ultimately prefer that he lets them go, accepts his tragic lot and goes from there. Divorcing himself from them is really the only way to go unless you want a big drawn-out headache like I what I believe meriandressial was trying get at. Much as I am ok with Murphy and family interaction, as it was done in the Series, again, at a certain point it just can't be interesting anymore.
I have no problem with Murphy deciding to leave his family behind - How they get there in R2 is where I have a bit of an issue, same as this article piece.
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I don't wanna pay that, PhotoBucket. Now maybe you haven't heard, but I'm the guy in old Archive. So hows about you just shit snow for a year and I'll figure out something else. Sayonara!
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KidGoesWild
L-L3
Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Post Count: 665
Comment: I type it, you think it
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AlexRobo
O-L3
Joined: 30 Dec 2011
Post Count: 106
Comment: "You gotta ask yourself one question, ED209, do you feel lucky?"
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 11:43 pm |
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When I first watched R2 in full on video back in the summer of 1994, I knew something didn't feel quite right. There was plenty of action which I didn't mind, but even then, I knew it lacked the warmth, humanity and soul of the 1st film. That had a definite structure and rhythm to it whereas the sequel was a mess in terms of its story and characterisation.
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JohnBoyAdvance
Sgt-L1
Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Post Count: 188
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 11:45 pm |
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Firstly - Blah blah I like Robocop 2. I don't think is deserves to be as hated as it is. But... its so meh. I guess after the first movie, meh would be super disappointing.
The things that I dont like about Robo2.
Lewis. As its been said, she doesn't do much in the movie. I mean in the first movie she does do afair bit and you kinda expect more in the sequel. Not in an awkward "lets take Robo out for a dinner date way" (WTF marvel cartoon) but more in a sort of kill a guy but then gets out numbered and knocked out in some sort of way. I dunno.
The movie doesn't really explain anything. How does Cain get a giant taser weapon that looks designed to take out Robocop? (Answer: Dr Faxx gives it to him in a deleted scene) How does Cain even know that Robocop is coming for him? (I dunno, I mean a scene where a beaten up Duffy could have called Cain to warn him could have worked? Its a lot of planning really, a mine, a workbench, an electromagnet) How much time actually passes while Robo is offline? (First movie kinda has this problem with the building of Robocop but its still explained. In Robo 2 one moment he is being carted off down a police hq corridor and next he is finished, being hacked by Dr Faxx. I mean a newscast of like "DAY X of Police Strike " throughout the first half of the movie)
3edgy5u. The movie is so downbeat, the attempts of humour comes at the expense of "HAHHAHAH WE ARE KILLING THE PLANET!" and "lethal car tasers" I mean I get it, you are never going to beat "I'll buy that for a dollar" but SOMETHING would be nice. Its typical Frank Miller. I kinda like his stuff but you gotta be in the right mood for it.
Robocain Design. Even as a 10-ish boy, I totally never "got" the final design for Robocop 2. Especially seeing as the previous models shown werent any bigger than Robocop. It just looks so overpowered really. Doesn't get dented or anything in that fight. And yet the entire thing looks like its made of cogs and pistons, kinda reminds me of an early "exploded design" robots you get now like in Transformers. What, I would have liked, is some background tech moaning that they somehow have to engineer pieces from the scrapped ED210 into the design after the two previous fuck ups costing 90 billion dollars.
The mysterious disappearances of "Elvis Thug" and "Shang Tsung Thug". They aren't killed, they arent caught, they just vanish. Where are you Elvis Thug and Shang Tsung Thug?
Bizarre shifts in tone. Hob, the child villain, is portrayed as a little shit throughout the entire movie, with one moment of sympathy (Witnessing Duffy's death) before he is shot and killed with a scene that is meant to be meloncholic but fails because he was a shit who never really stopped being a shit. Despite wincing in horror at Duffy's violent demise, he was perfectly happy at choking out Lewis. There are a few I can remember. The Mayor. I mean who would elect someone that shit?
Thats all I can think of. I mean I understand the criticism of having Murphy's wife appear and then never turn up again, but it never really stuck out as a flaw too me. I thought the soundtrack was ok too.
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Stan The Man
Bah Concepts Division
Joined: 05 Jun 2003
Post Count: 7026
Comment: I'm the guy in Old Archive.
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| Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 2:24 am |
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| JohnBoyAdvance : | | I thought the soundtrack was ok |
I like Rosenman's score a fair bit. A lot of people think it's trash but I find it good for what it is. That said, what it is is indeed 'meh' compared to Poledouris' work. And I would give almost anything to do away with that 'ROBOCOP!!' chorus in it. That said -
| JohnBoyAdvance : | | Blah blah I like Robocop 2. I don't think is deserves to be as hated as it is. But... its so meh. I guess after the first movie, meh would be super disappointing. |
I think that's pretty much it in a nutshell. Bah.
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I don't wanna pay that, PhotoBucket. Now maybe you haven't heard, but I'm the guy in old Archive. So hows about you just shit snow for a year and I'll figure out something else. Sayonara!
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JohnBoyAdvance
Sgt-L1
Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Post Count: 188
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| Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 11:03 am |
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| Stan The Man : |
| JohnBoyAdvance : | | Blah blah I like Robocop 2. I don't think is deserves to be as hated as it is. But... its so meh. I guess after the first movie, meh would be super disappointing. |
I think that's pretty much it in a nutshell. Bah. |
And then Robocop 3.
*coughs*
I do think the amazing thing is - despite the sequels being as they are. The first movie is still loved. There is a tendency for people to go back to the first movie (or game) in a series and think "was it really any good?" maybe that has happened, people watch it and go "yup it was" .
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ChAnOoD
DC-L4
Joined: 29 Dec 2008
Post Count: 2798
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| Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 7:31 pm |
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| JohnBoyAdvance : | | Its typical Frank Miller. I kinda like his stuff but you gotta be in the right mood for it. |
I think the problem with Miller is that you can feel what he does when you read some of his comics. Here, he got more people involved, and the tone isn´t really clear (I think some of you think Kershner did a more "serious" direction with the film).
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RoboJOF
Sgt-L4
Joined: 17 May 2015
Post Count: 306
Comment: Bitches, leave!
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 12:02 am |
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First, let me begin by saying that I love Robocop 2 as is, but even with my own bias, I can identify some areas where it was lacking.
In a nutshell, Robocop 2’s storytelling focused way too much on the futuristic commercial dystopia (which is a hallmark of the series) and not enough on the development of Robocop’s character. I would also argue that this movie diminished Robocop’s character and then painfully tried to restore it by the ending (“We’re only human”).
The pivotal scene for character development is the scene near the beginning with Murphy’s wife. I liked how OCP was doing its typical corporate thing and trying to avoid a lawsuit by trying to force Murphy to turn his back on his identity. I also think that this scene needed to happen because he was investigating his previous life since the first movie. My issue is how he handled it.
In my opinion there are two possible ways that this could have went to avoid backsliding Robocop’s character from his acceptance at the end of the first movie. They are:
Scenario 1:
Robocop has the meeting with his wife and tries to explain to her that he can’t be who he was because of what he has become (Compare this to the way this issue always gets solved in Batman stories and movies: Batman is always gonna be Batman, but he still watches over the people he cares about, or something like that). By doing it this way, Robocop can move on without being tortured by his past. As far as OCP is concerned, I never understood why he is a renegade badass in Robocop, but acts like a corporate slave in Robocop 2. Eventually he would just tell OCP that he is Alex Murphy and is no longer their property. Problem solved, let’s move on with the next villain, just don’t forget to check in on your family from time to time.
Scenario 2: (possibly better for the character) Murphy avoids the meeting to create tension. Then the resolve has to happen. Later in the movie, Murphy shows his family that he knows who he is and is going to continue to watch over them and protect them, as he does with the rest of the city. The difference is, just because he can’t be exactly who he was, doesn’t mean he can be what he is and still care about them. I envision a tie-in with the Nuke gang, perhaps trying to sell nuke to Murphy’s son, James. Mrs. Murphy gets in the way and both are about to be killed by the gang member, when Robocop, who is checking in on them, saves the day. At that point, he can acknowledge who he is:
“How could you have known we were in trouble?” says Mrs. Murphy.
(Dramatic pause) “I was in the area and detected trouble” says Robocop in a mechanical tone,
“But I will always be there if you need me” says Robocop as Murphy.
“Alex, is that really you?” says Mrs. Murphy.
“I am Robocop, OCP-001 and I am Alex Murphy.” says Robocop.
(Mrs. Murphy is confused and anxious)
“I can never be what I was to you, but you will always be who you are to me.” says Robocop as Murphy.
“Alex, What do we do now? How do we live?” asks Mrs. Murphy.
“I don’t know. We do what we can. We’re only human.” says Robocop as Murphy.
BOOM! Character development completed, let’s move on with the violence and destruction, check in with the fam from time to time, no identity complex in future sequels, AND stick it to the man! Take that OCP!
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RoboPimp
PIMPY SUPREME
Joined: 10 Mar 2007
Post Count: 3140
Comment: "Pimpin' ain't easy but somebody gotta do it" - Ice T
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 1:34 am |
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| RoboJOF : | My issue is how he handled it.
In my opinion there are two possible ways that this could have went to avoid backsliding Robocop’s character from his acceptance at the end of the first movie. |
I'm gonna have to step in and say I don't think that scene is in anyway a 'backslide' from the first movie. Actually, I think Robocop 2 overall continues his movement towards accepting his humanity. But it's a very confusing time for Robo, so it's not like at the end of the first movie he was like "OK I'm Murphy, it's all good". He still had a lot of things to figure out, and while he was accepting his humanity that didn't improve his life much. The way he stalks his wife goes against his programming / training, so it is a clearly a personal thing. And while he still feels love for his wife, he doesn't know how to go about expressing it.
Then look at how they get into his head before bringing her in. He is told he will never be able to love her properly, never be a good father, never give her the life she deserves. We can practically see a tear roll down his eye as he agrees. When she does come in and he says that he's just a product, that isn't him handling how he 'wants' to... it's how he has to. While he might not entirely agree that he is a product, he knows that he is far from being able to be the husband he was before. Seeing her just solidifies that reality, so he does as he is told because he thinks it is the best way to approach it at the time. They both need closure at this point, and while it may not be satisfying for either or them, it's what had to be done at this point.
Overall, this is one of the most heart-wrenching scenes in the trilogy. If they didn't have the bit about him stalking her I could maybe see how it is "backsliding", but as it is I think it's a brilliant step in his development as Murphy. He accepts his humanity, but with that comes accepting his lack of humanity. He just wants her to move on and be happy, and there's nothing more heroic than that. Like I said, this is still a transition period for Robo, at he hasn't quite reached the point of cracking jokes and stuff, but he was getting close. He will likely never forget his wife, but he gave her the closure she deserved. Of course, all indications of his feelings are very subtle, but that's what makes it so great to me.
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RoboJOF
Sgt-L4
Joined: 17 May 2015
Post Count: 306
Comment: Bitches, leave!
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 3:21 am |
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I liked reading your response, RoboPimp, it shows that you also have analyzed the purpose and outcomes of this scene closely.
I agree that it is a necessary scene to develop the Murphy half of the character. I also agree that Murphy took the heroic approach and thought about others above himself (only a human, not a machine could do that). I wish that Murphy could have maintained the same confidence and self-assuredness that he had when he referred to himself as Murphy to the Old Man in the last scene of the first movie. Doing the right thing for everyone else in Robocop 2 may have protected them, but it allowed OCP to keep control of him and, more critically, I feel that it set Murphy's acceptance of who he has become back a bit.
I liken this situation to a person who is has developed a sudden illness. They are indeed fragile, as you mentioned, and anything negative can send them several steps back.
I think that Robocop 2 ended on a positive note, as you mentioned, with Robocop getting back into his work and then joking with Lewis at the end (that scene with him tightening the screw in his head at the same time as quoting, "We're only human" is perfect comic book satire). But he never seemed to be in the same positive headspace (as in the last scene of the first movie) ever again in the series.
I guess that when you see someone suffer, it brings you comfort to see their condition improve. Maybe my opinion is biased in that way. In any case, this conversation shows that the audience is seeking the same resolve or closure that the characters do. That must be an indication that the character development is happening, because we are feeling with them. I guess everyone loves a happy ending, even if it happens after a brutal city-wide cyborg slugfest.
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RoboCop 2 - What do you dislike about it?
