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Nancy Allen's feud with Irvin Kershner
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Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 2:01 am Reply with quote

Does anyone else think Kershner was right to want to recast the Lewis part?

Despite being cast as her in the first film, Nancy wasn't all that convincing in the role. Except for the occasional shot and delivery, she was very one-dimensional and stilted. Pulling silly macho looks, closing her eyes whilst firing weapons. She didn't improve much in the second film, almost phoning it in. The third was a more convincing display of an experienced police officer, but still the wooden, trying too hard to be tough element.

Stephanie Zimbalist of "Remington Steele" was the original choice. Had she not have pulled out due to a late pick-up on that show, I think we would've seen more exploration of Murphy and Lewis' relationship. Kershner may've been more receptive to the material written for them in the initial drafts.

Yvette Nipar had more range as a performer than Allen. Imagine if she'd played Lewis and accepted the name change for the show. Would've been a great bridge between trilogy and series.




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Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:22 am Reply with quote

Spectrum Scarlet :
Nancy wasn't all that convincing in the role.


I think you'll be hard pressed to find someone to agree with your about that around here.

I, like many, loved her portrayal of Lewis. While it is unfortunate how Kershner cut down her parts in Robocop 2, that is his fault and not hers. Yes, maybe we would have seen more development of theiir relationship if someone else played Lewis, but we also might have seen more development of their relationship if someone who gave a shit about the movie directed it. Does this mean I think Nancy Allen is the best actress ever? Maybe not, but she was the best Lewis. The character is both memorable and essential to the Robocop mythos, and she deserves her credit on both accounts. Just like it sucked when Peter Weller was replaced for Robocop 3, it would have sucked to see Nancy Allen replaced for Robocop 2.




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Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:32 am Reply with quote

While I can understand your argument, I agree with Pimp. Nancy Allen fulfilled Paul Verhoeven's vision for the character. I'm sure, knowing how Verhoeven directs, he would have had Zimbalist give the same performance. She didn't even want to do Robo 3 when Weller backed out but did so anyway.

Now go on Nancy and don't mind this thread. We all love you...

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Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:41 am Reply with quote

Spectrum Scarlet :
Does anyone else think Kershner was right to want to recast the Lewis part?


No, I don't think Kersh was/would've been right to have done that. And I think this applies to the vast majority of us on here.

I doubt in the final product it would have made much difference in terms of either R1 or R2.

In R1's case, as Wags said, Allen no doubt gave the performance Verhoeven and Neumeier/Miner wanted, and that would be the case regardless of actor.

In terms of R2, what problems there are of Lewis in the film, they, like many of the film's other problems, are more writing/narrative- and directing- and editing-based, and almost none of that can really be laid at Nancy Allen's feet. Pimp noted much of this already. With that, much of her 'feud' as I understand was that she disagreed quite a bit with many of those kinds of decisions, decisions that she no doubt felt (and which I'd agree) hurt her performance and portrayal in the second film. And frankly I think this almost certainly would still have been the case with another actor as well given R2's problematic production.

Spectrum Scarlet :
Despite being cast as her in the first film, Nancy wasn't all that convincing in the role. Except for the occasional shot and delivery, she was very one-dimensional and stilted. Pulling silly macho looks, closing her eyes whilst firing weapons. She didn't improve much in the second film, almost phoning it in. The third was a more convincing display of an experienced police officer, but still the wooden, trying too hard to be tough element.


Wasn't all the convincing? Really? She trained some and even changed her appearance for the role and had family that were cops, I think she played her character quite well, actually. I'll concede she had an air of trying a bit hard, but I don't think it was forced enough to be problematic. At least not for me.

Part of her subdued performance in R1 was intentional, the choice was made where there wasn't much a place for anything to be 'explored' in terms of any relationship. A choice that I mostly agree with there.

Her issues in R2 again are rolled into a number of other factors.

Acting macho and too tough and whatnot are things I've seen in dozens of other cop roles, they don't detract so much from most of those characters, and don't here either.

Blinking when firing guns? That's a mostly involuntary response and frankly is a low-blow kind of criticism to make here, and indeed is so most of the time on actors - This coming from a gun guy. Weller as Robo blinks when he shoots too, and RoboCop has absolutely no reason to blink at all, that and Weller grew up around guns. Would you say that makes his performance as Robo lacking? Bah. Again, that's honestly a real nitpicky and even shitty criticism to make.

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Stephanie Zimbalist of "Remington Steele" was the original choice. Had she not have pulled out due to a late pick-up on that show, I think we would've seen more exploration of Murphy and Lewis' relationship.


Uh, as already indicated, the choice of actor can only have so much of an effect on how they're written and directed - Especially given other factors.

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Yvette Nipar had more range as a performer than Allen. Imagine if she'd played Lewis and accepted the name change for the show. Would've been a great bridge between trilogy and series.


Now this I might agree with. I liked Nipar's performance a good bit as well. That said, the inability to re-use Lewis' name was due to the TV rights, the actress didn't have a choice there even if she wanted. Not that it really matters, she pretty much did play the Lewis character in all but name anyway.

All-told I too don't think you'll get a lot of agreement on most of this here.
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Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:59 am Reply with quote

I think Nancy Allen did well. Thatīs all. tongue



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Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:05 am Reply with quote

Hey guys, merely my opinion. Fair enough.

I doubt Zimablist would've given the same performance as Allen, given they're different actors. From what some of the supporting cast have said in interviews (Michael, Galyn), their experience with Kersh was mostly a positive one. I was under the impression Weller enjoyed working with him, too.

As far as her doing Robo 3, it was a paycheque. The feature roles were drying up, either because she was pulling away from stereotype parts or scripts with strong women were sparse. There was a lot of the former back then, and not much of the latter.




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Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:37 am Reply with quote

Stan The Man :
In R1's case, as Wags said, Allen no doubt gave the performance Verhoeven and Neumeier/Miner wanted, and that would be the case regardless of actor.


Again, every actor brings something different to the table. Wouldn't be so prescribed as you're suggesting.

Stan The Man :
In terms of R2, what problems there are of Lewis in the film, they, like many of the film's other problems, are more writing/narrative- and directing- and editing-based, and almost none of that can really be laid at Nancy Allen's feet. Pimp noted much of this already. With that, much of her 'feud' as I understand was that she disagreed quite a bit with many of those kinds of decisions, decisions that she no doubt felt (and which I'd agree) hurt her performance and portrayal in the second film. And frankly I think this almost certainly would still have been the case with another actor as well given R2's problematic production.


You could look at it that way. You could also look at how I speculated. Some directors can be incredibly egotistic, and if they don't like a particular actor for reasons of their own, they can base their reasons for story change on that alone. It's happened before.

Stan The Man :
Wasn't all the convincing? Really? She trained some and even changed her appearance for the role and had family that were cops, I think she played her character quite well, actually. I'll concede she had an air of trying a bit hard, but I don't think it was forced enough to be problematic. At least not for me.


Her appearance was fine, but based on interviews by herself, her reluctance to cut her hair so short reflects a degree of unwillingness. Lack of confidence in playing a cop with that look. It's funny, I liked her more in the 3rd film, and it's as if she felt more comfortable in the role with longer hair. She looked like she was.

Stan The Man :
Part of her subdued performance in R1 was intentional, the choice was made where there wasn't much a place for anything to be 'explored' in terms of any relationship. A choice that I mostly agree with there. Her issues in R2 again are rolled into a number of other factors. Acting macho and too tough and whatnot are things I've seen in dozens of other cop roles, they don't detract so much from most of those characters, and don't here either.


There's subdued and there's stiff.

Stan The Man :
Blinking when firing guns? That's a mostly involuntary response and frankly is a low-blow kind of criticism to make here, and indeed is so most of the time on actors - This coming from a gun guy. Weller as Robo blinks when he shoots too, and RoboCop has absolutely no reason to blink at all, that and Weller grew up around guns. Would you say that makes his performance as Robo lacking? Bah. Again, that's honestly a real nitpicky and even shitty criticism to make.


Oh, calm down. I'll rephrase. When she's on the firing range at the police station, she's blinking in fear that the gun's going to blow back on her. She's also stood like an ice figure. Weller, being more accustomed to weapons, put more of a stance to it; a thrust when he pulled and fired. I don't think that was because Neumeier described the character as a gunfighter. It was down to Peter's confidence and being comfortable around guns. Nancy was the opposite, but again, in the 3rd film, she handled it better.

Put it this way, compare her to that scene in R1 to those first few shots after the initial petrolbomb in R3. Fairly big difference, and not shitty or low-blow. The character's a fuckin' cop, lol. She wouldn't be much good on the street if she was shooting like a rookie.

Stan The Man :
Uh, as already indicated, the choice of actor can only have so much of an effect on how they're written and directed - Especially given other factors.


Are you proposing that every actress in Hollywood would've given an identical performance, regardless of their differences? Hmm. Ok. Where's the 'roll eyes' emoticon.

Stan The Man :
Now this I might agree with. I liked Nipar's performance a good bit as well. That said, the inability to re-use Lewis' name was due to the TV rights, the actress didn't have a choice there even if she wanted. Not that it really matters, she pretty much did play the Lewis character in all but name anyway.


I'm aware she didn't have a choice (hence "if she had accepted"). I liked how they didn't write her as just a patrol officer. That wouldn't have given much scope to write with. Worked well when she rose to detective.




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Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:13 am Reply with quote

Spectrum Scarlet :
Does anyone else think Kershner was right to want to recast the Lewis part?

Despite being cast as her in the first film, Nancy wasn't all that convincing in the role. Except for the occasional shot and delivery, she was very one-dimensional and stilted. Pulling silly macho looks, closing her eyes whilst firing weapons. She didn't improve much in the second film, almost phoning it in. The third was a more convincing display of an experienced police officer, but still the wooden, trying too hard to be tough element.


I've never had any reason to think otherwise about Allen. She has and always will be part of the Robocop mythos. She was wonderful alongside Weller imo.

Spectrum Scarlet :
Stephanie Zimbalist of "Remington Steele" was the original choice. Had she not have pulled out due to a late pick-up on that show, I think we would've seen more exploration of Murphy and Lewis' relationship. Kershner may've been more receptive to the material written for them in the initial drafts.


Prior to R1 I'd never heard about Allen or Zimbalist so can't say much about how either of their backgrounds may have influenced the Lewis role. But how could the same script provide more exploration of Murphy and Lewis relationship with another actor?

Spectrum Scarlet :
Yvette Nipar had more range as a performer than Allen. Imagine if she'd played Lewis and accepted the name change for the show. Would've been a great bridge between trilogy and series.


I don't mind the name change. Its a different aspect of the robo world to me and so they can both enjoy their own credited performances.
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Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 7:13 am Reply with quote

Bah, why am I getting picked on? Oh, probably 'cause I picked the most out of anyone - Eh, well, fair enough. Smile

Spectrum Scarlet :
Stan The Man :
In R1's case, as Wags said, Allen no doubt gave the performance Verhoeven and Neumeier/Miner wanted, and that would be the case regardless of actor.


Again, every actor brings something different to the table. Wouldn't be so prescribed as you're suggesting.


This is true. But with a powerful and forceful figure like Verhoeven, I think what he's looking for will be paramount. In any case I seriously don't think there would have been much difference though - not with Zimbalist, nor with any other actress I can think of that could have played Lewis.

Quote:
Stan The Man :
In terms of R2, what problems there are of Lewis in the film, they, like many of the film's other problems, are more writing/narrative- and directing- and editing-based, and almost none of that can really be laid at Nancy Allen's feet. Pimp noted much of this already. With that, much of her 'feud' as I understand was that she disagreed quite a bit with many of those kinds of decisions, decisions that she no doubt felt (and which I'd agree) hurt her performance and portrayal in the second film. And frankly I think this almost certainly would still have been the case with another actor as well given R2's problematic production.


You could look at it that way. You could also look at how I speculated. Some directors can be incredibly egotistic, and if they don't like a particular actor for reasons of their own, they can base their reasons for story change on that alone. It's happened before.


That it has. But again, that to me is the director being at fault rather than the actor. Especially as you describe. If an actor is problematic or something that'd be one thing, but otherwise I don't see how being an asshole in that way serves the project.

Granted, in the case of R2, Kersh had the ego problem (he was a big name after all, especially then) on top of being old and tired and getting semi-roped into this big very-studio-expectant sequel film at the last minute after a lot of stuff had already happened even though not everything was squared away yet. Dealing with all that stress and shit I'm sure wasn't fun on top of doing his job, which I have to say he did alright on. I'd give him more an out except I believe to just pass your bad day and ill attitude onto the actors really isn't cool or all that professional, and that's very much what I feel happened with Allen, and to a degree with some others. And again, I think that very much would have been the case regardless of actor anyway.

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Stan The Man :
Wasn't all the convincing? Really? She trained some and even changed her appearance for the role and had family that were cops, I think she played her character quite well, actually. I'll concede she had an air of trying a bit hard, but I don't think it was forced enough to be problematic. At least not for me.


Her appearance was fine, but based on interviews by herself, her reluctance to cut her hair so short reflects a degree of unwillingness. Lack of confidence in playing a cop with that look. It's funny, I liked her more in the 3rd film, and it's as if she felt more comfortable in the role with longer hair. She looked like she was.


IIRC, Verhoeven made her cut it multiple times, I'm sure she might have been a tad frustrated at a certain point.. Perhaps anxious as well, and so I might grant you some of that. But again, I don't see it as quite as pronounced as you do. I do concur she seemed more comfortable in 3 though, however I think she lost some of the cop feel with her look in that film.

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Stan The Man :
Part of her subdued performance in R1 was intentional, the choice was made where there wasn't much a place for anything to be 'explored' in terms of any relationship. A choice that I mostly agree with there. Her issues in R2 again are rolled into a number of other factors. Acting macho and too tough and whatnot are things I've seen in dozens of other cop roles, they don't detract so much from most of those characters, and don't here either.


There's subdued and there's stiff.


Again, I don't quite see it that way.

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Stan The Man :
Blinking when firing guns? That's a mostly involuntary response and frankly is a low-blow kind of criticism to make here, and indeed is so most of the time on actors - This coming from a gun guy. Weller as Robo blinks when he shoots too, and RoboCop has absolutely no reason to blink at all, that and Weller grew up around guns. Would you say that makes his performance as Robo lacking? Bah. Again, that's honestly a real nitpicky and even shitty criticism to make.


Oh, calm down. I'll rephrase. When she's on the firing range at the police station, she's blinking in fear that the gun's going to blow back on her. She's also stood like an ice figure. Weller, being more accustomed to weapons, put more of a stance to it; a thrust when he pulled and fired. I don't think that was because Neumeier described the character as a gunfighter. It was down to Peter's confidence and being comfortable around guns. Nancy was the opposite, but again, in the 3rd film, she handled it better.

Put it this way, compare her to that scene in R1 to those first few shots after the initial petrolbomb in R3. Fairly big difference, and not shitty or low-blow. The character's a fuckin' cop, lol. She wouldn't be much good on the street if she was shooting like a rookie.


Good of you to elaborate here, I think that might have helped to have me not get into so much had you done so before. Anyway - In the range sequence, yes she's being perhaps a bit more fidgety. Part of that though is likely due to all the other weapons firing in proximity. I do agree her overall stance wasn't good though. In any case, I still think we're to a real technical level here where I think to harp on it is a bit much, especially for this kind of film and in an era where most firearms familiarization on films - even ones where folks are playing experienced cops and soldiers - consisted of not much more than the basic safety training. Yes she could have been coached better, but that probably couldn't have fit in the time and/or budget.

So yes, perhaps Nancy wasn't the best choice in that particular regard. Again though, I find that a particular that can mainly be overlooked. Evidently Verhoeven and co thought so as well. Certainly not considered again that much a detraction. I'll give her a break because I've seen and tolerated much worse in other stuff.

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Stan The Man :
Uh, as already indicated, the choice of actor can only have so much of an effect on how they're written and directed - Especially given other factors.


Are you proposing that every actress in Hollywood would've given an identical performance, regardless of their differences? Hmm. Ok. Where's the 'roll eyes' emoticon.


Absolutely identical, of course not. Enough a difference to actually have been better or worse in the final analysis? Again, unlikely. Of course we'll never really know, but still.

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Stan The Man :
Now this I might agree with. I liked Nipar's performance a good bit as well. That said, the inability to re-use Lewis' name was due to the TV rights, the actress didn't have a choice there even if she wanted. Not that it really matters, she pretty much did play the Lewis character in all but name anyway.


I'm aware she didn't have a choice (hence "if she had accepted"). I liked how they didn't write her as just a patrol officer. That wouldn't have given much scope to write with. Worked well when she rose to detective.


Ah! Well, I'm with ya there, I concur that was a good progression to make, and actually would have liked to see something like that in the films.
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Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:08 am Reply with quote

Ever since Ive listen to the podcast interview with Dekker I started to think of Nancy as a bit of a diva. She continuously thrashed Kershner for supposedly being "borderline abusive" to her and being mean to her saying she hates him, ok, thats fine, but Dekker said he had problems with her himself, that she refused to wear a police uniform in R3 and that that her behavior and stance was quite odd. Since then I think kershner did have legitimate reasons for trying to replace her

Dont get me wrong, she was perfect as Lewis and created a terrific character and no one else would do her justice, I love her character, but the actress? Hmm

its the fact in general that yet another director, who seems like a nice and polite guy despite his lack of talent, had problems with Allen. Being a professional, veteran and perfectionist that Kershner was, its more understandable for me now that he would be fed up with her attitude. And judging by accounts of Dekker, and the fact that no one even hinted at Kershner having a problem with anybody other than the script, that it was Allen who was the problem, not almost everyone around her as she claims

Again, she was perfect for Lewis, and created a great, and generally underrated movie character. Just like Weller who did absolute wonders with the characters, and who should get as much as an almost full credit for those for their brilliant portrayals, I think they created miracle and made the characters icons they are today and defined them, but as actual people, they are either very odd or, in case of Allen, have a less than stellar personality. Ultimately , it doesnt matter. What matters is whats on screen

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Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:14 am Reply with quote

Well, I had heard some other folks had issues with Kersh, though admittedly not nearly as much or to that level. To be fair though most of that could be chalked up to Kersh's and everyone's stress on the production.

Now Nancy Allen I could see being a bit of a diva indeed, but eh, I don't know. I remember those remarks with Dekker in regards to Nancy and they sounded really odd and thus I wasn't too inclined to take them at face value much. Perhaps Nancy was going through some things or something. But as pointed out Dekker certainly seems an alright guy so eh, who the hell really knows?

Bottom line though Nancy initiated and played the role quite good for me, and her staying with it was a nice bit of continuity. To replace her I think would have been at best no less and at worst even more problematic in the final analysis; I don't see what it would've improved. This especially in R2 where it has serious issues and flaws that are fundamentally there pretty much regardless of Nancy Allen.
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Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:25 pm Reply with quote

KidGoesWild :
Dekker said he had problems with her himself, that she refused to wear a police uniform in R3 and that that her behavior and stance was quite odd.

Seeing as how she didn't really want to do the third one without Weller, I don't find it odd at all. We see in many movies where an actor is forced into it that there are issues and usually a lackluster performance. Nancy still gave a good performance and did her job i.m.o. Dekker's issues dive far beyond Nancy as he took on a sequel that was rushed and then canned for several years before being released. It's a shame really because I like R3 (Archive needs to add a R3 Loyal badge Wink ) and I think it could have done much better with a few script changes and 100% more Peter Weller.
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Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:02 pm Reply with quote

I wouldn't change Allen for anybody, thats a given, but I do make a distinction between actors and their talent/characters. For example, Weller is my favorite Robocop not necessarily just because he was the first and shaped it up, but mostly , among many other things, that he was the ONLY who played Robocop as a ballsy,pain feeling, vengeful human being as oppose to everyone else who played him as a straight up robot. Weller was a guy with robotic body, all the others were robots with human face.

BUT, Weller as a person, well, can I really say hes likeable?, Hes a very weird and ex centric guy who doesnt smile much (if at all) nowadays, but his Robocop is undeniable and he gave a genius performance and gave as a terrific character which nobody else followed in their portrayals (albeit you can argue that Kinneman also played the same character in the suit that he played outside the suit)


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This thread is like finding out about all your family secrets at the Christmas Party...
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