| Author |
Message |
NukeLord
L-L2
 
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Post Count: 621
Comment: White Noise, Black Thunder, Blue Velvet or Red Ramrod?
|
  Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:49 pm |
|
|
|
| RoboPimp : | | NukeLord : | | Maybe I should've articulated it as "in my opinion parts of the score are problematic because certain parts either do not fit the movie or sound too generic" |
That is a better way of stating it without a fundamental misunderstanding of great genres of music! |
Cool. I'll make sure to articulate better in future so I don't offend the easily offended. 
|
|
 |
|
 |
NukeLord
L-L2
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Post Count: 621
Comment: White Noise, Black Thunder, Blue Velvet or Red Ramrod?
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:28 pm |
|
|
|
A great video of Basil Poledouris composing a live performance of the Conan score in Ubeda, just weeks before his death of cancer. The man is humbled by the response to his music when he's terminally ill.
There's obviously a "Part 1" to watch before this if you choose to. There's a also a brilliant "Remembering Basil Poledouris" doc on YouTube as well with Paul Verhoeven and his family contributing to it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oDhyrevrWA
I like Leonard Rosenman. His Star Trak IV score was a great score and he pretty much lays out how he came to derive it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31vnoj1Ph-M
I find all of it interesting to watch as they are the "musical voices" behind the scenes from people we never really see as people. They're just a "composer" on the end credits...but they're much more important than that. 
|
|
|
|
|
vegasrobo
RoboGod and Shit
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Post Count: 2401
Comment: Vegas Baby!!!
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:30 pm |
|
|
|
The R2 score is terrible for more reasons then just one..So I'll site the first issue I have with it..Its a recycled score..Its primarily Rosenman's Score from the film "THE CAR"..Don't believe me?..Have a listen its out there..
|
|
|
|
|
NukeLord
L-L2
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Post Count: 621
Comment: White Noise, Black Thunder, Blue Velvet or Red Ramrod?
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:33 pm |
|
|
|
| vegasrobo : | | The R2 score is terrible for more reasons then just one..So I'll site the first issue I have with it..Its a recycled score..Its primarily Rosenman's Score from the film "THE CAR"..Don't believe me?..Have a listen its out there.. |
A lot of Rosenman's music feels generic and self-plagiarised. As I said above - I have come to like his score. But even in the Rosenman interview clip I posted... he infers himself...he just wants to do his own thing. I think think that showed in the film.
Especially when he was rushed by a collapsing Orion Pictures that needed the picture to make a summer release.
|
|
|
|
|
Stan The Man
Bah Concepts Division
Joined: 05 Jun 2003
Post Count: 7020
Comment: I'm the guy in Old Archive.
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:55 pm |
|
|
|
Pimp yet again tries to stir a bunch of shit over something piddly - in this case, semantics. Cute, but frankly no one else here really cares about the misapplied and ridiculous offense to your musical taste let alone your pretentious defense of it. NukeLord made a poor word choice? Big fucking deal. As well pointed out in the end just a fucking opinion, maybe next time instead of NukeLord tip-toeing over what words to say or not how about you figure out a way to say you don't agree without going into a condescending and ultimately unnecessary tirade. I mean really...
Now back to what this shit actually is about - I'm with NukeLord and Chanood. I like Rosenman's score, enjoy it. That said decidedly inferior to Poledouris' work on R1. And since it might need to be pointed out I speak as someone who generally listens to scores and BGM as much as if not more than other music.
Like Chanood I very much agree the percussive 'metal' parts are spot on for the vein of RoboCop. That said, the overall rest of it, with all the trumpets and vocals are definitely too hero-y/superhero-y for Robo in my mind. That chorus bit always makes me wince.. Really think they could've done away with that and it woulda been a bit better as a main theme. Compare the main theme/end credits bit with 'Robo and Nuke' and tell me it doesn't work just fine if not better without that 'Robo-COP' chanting. 'Robo and Nuke' is THE R2 main theme in my view.
That said, as bombtastic as much of it is, other pieces do seem kinda plain. A good plain, if that makes any sense.. but still. Example - 'Robo Cruiser' is a good 'get there' kind of track, but that said it is still a straight up 'get there' kind of track. 'Drive to Jones' Office' isn't, it is, but also isn't, if that makes sense - and it is just beautiful. I do like 'Robo Memories' a lot, it along with 'Robo and Nuke' I think are great pieces in terms of being for a sequel.. the sense of the original is there, but it's also quite different, has some change. Not too much. Unfortunately most of the rest of it isn't done that well.
All-in-all I think goes back to a problem with balance, same overriding issue with R2 in general. I think Basil did strike a better balance of musical keys and tones with R1, it's perfect like just about everything else in that film. That said, though I wouldn't have minded seeing what Basil could have done on an original R2 score.. putting the R1 music over R2 is kinda jarring and out-of-place honestly.. The workprint showed as much.
So there it is, it has some issues but overall I can't call it terrible personally. It's fairly good for what it is. But again what it is pales to Basil's work, there's simply no comparison. Pretty much like I've always said.
_________________
I don't wanna pay that, PhotoBucket. Now maybe you haven't heard, but I'm the guy in old Archive. So hows about you just shit snow for a year and I'll figure out something else. Sayonara!
|
|
|
|
|
Archive
.
Joined: 17 Nov 2001
Post Count: 6533
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 3:03 pm |
|
|
|
I have no real problem with the score, other than the fact that they didn't include the Robo theme. Which is an odd choice. Would have been nice to hear a Rosenman version of it.
Do we know if there are any kind of reason for Poledouris not being back scoring the sequel? I don't remember reading anything about it...?
|
|
|
|
|
Spectrum Scarlet
Sgt-L1*
SIMPY 4 PIMPY
Joined: 16 Dec 2008
Post Count: 154
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:29 pm |
|
|
|
| Archive : | I have no real problem with the score, other than the fact that they didn't include the Robo theme. Which is an odd choice. Would have been nice to hear a Rosenman version of it.
Do we know if there are any kind of reason for Poledouris not being back scoring the sequel? I don't remember reading anything about it...? |
He may've been tied up doing "The Hunt for Red October" that year, or a film starring Tom Selleck. The RoboDoc guys are bound to know. Hoping they asked Jon Davison.
|
|
|
|
|
NukeLord
L-L2
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Post Count: 621
Comment: White Noise, Black Thunder, Blue Velvet or Red Ramrod?
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:26 pm |
|
|
|
| Archive : | I have no real problem with the score, other than the fact that they didn't include the Robo theme. Which is an odd choice. Would have been nice to hear a Rosenman version of it.
Do we know if there are any kind of reason for Poledouris not being back scoring the sequel? I don't remember reading anything about it...? |
I'm 99.9% sure I read that Kershner didn't like the original score as he felt it was too mechanical - so he hired his friend Leonard Rosenman. I am struggling to recall where I read that. I am going to try to trawl the internet to find it. I will edit this post if I do find it.
I did find this from Poledouris about scoring RoboCop 3:
Poledouris parodied his own action scores with the spoof sequel HOT SHOTS! PART DEUX, and scored another sequel, ROBOCOP 3 (Leonard Rosenman had scored 1990's RoboCop 2, directed by Irvin Kershner). As with the original RoboCop, Poledouris was interviewed about the project before he scored it...
Fred Dekker, who's the director of RoboCop 3, I think one of his criteria for hiring me is that I will use thematic material from the first RoboCop, particularly the heroic march stuff, things like that. Maybe the home theme -- there is a sequence where he remembers his past again. So yes, there will be elements of that, but in RoboCop 3, there are some really good villains as usual, and this time he comes up against "Ninja-Robo." So I think that's going to present a really rich basis to draw from, in terms of Kabuki music and Seven Samurai kinds of music. What I've got in mind basically is I'd like to use some of the sounds -- not necessarily the styles -- but the sounds of the koto, the Japanese ceremonial drum, things like that.
I have seen it. I saw the rough cut about a month ago. The post-production schedule is very comfortable. I think they're taking the kind of time and care that most films should have in post-production, so it'll probably be another couple of weeks before we spot the film. So they've had a great deal of time to hone it down to its proper pace and length. I've started working on a couple of the other major characters. Interestingly enough, one of the main characters in the film is a fourteen-year-old girl -- she's actually the heroine of the movie. So I've been working on her theme which is like counter to Robo. (S44)
...as well as afterwards...
I found this interesting because the character had regained some of his humanity. He knows who he is, and he isn't so disturbed. With the character more resolved, I didn't feel the need to use electronics extensively. The score is more grounded in human emotions. This is the approach I prefer. I like stories that have to do with people, I like to write for human relationships. I like the intimate rather than the violent. (MM)
Source: http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/articles/2007/08_Aug---Basil_Poledouris_In_His_Own_Words_Part_Five.asp
|
|
|
|
|
NukeLord
L-L2
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Post Count: 621
Comment: White Noise, Black Thunder, Blue Velvet or Red Ramrod?
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:39 pm |
|
|
|
My apologies to Kershner. I don't think it was him who lambasted the original Poledouris score. It was Rosenman himself. Although Kershner obviously agreed. Sounds like a bit of an asshole to me. I knew I'd read this somewhere. I've created a new post so it's all a bit easier to read...and I think Archive has his answer for why the original theme wasn't used! 
For the RoboCop 2 score, the composer wasn't limited to the themes Basil Poledouris penned for the first film. Despite Orion Pictures' use of the RoboCop theme in preview footage. Rosenman was determined to write his own score.
"I thought the score for the first film was so absolutely dreadful." he notes. "There was no sense of the orchestra, no sense of drama. It was just a dopey, lousy score, and it just didn't work.
"I'm not a fan of Poledouris. The end credits [for RoboCop], which is the best opportunity for any composer, was just pasted together [from previously scored cues]. My end title is a real piece of music, and the middle part is something very different from most film scores."
Rosenman wanted his Robo-theme to musically present the contrasts between Murphy's current mechanical body and his ever-hidden human soul. Starting with a percussion track, the six-note motif changed from a mechanical sound to a "mystical" one. with the inclusion of four soprano singers, sitting in with the flutes, whose voices are almost heard subliminally. It was the composer's desire that the audience should never forget Murphy's inner conflict between robot and machine.
Source: Starlog Magazine archive
https://archive.org/stream/starlog_magazine-172/172_djvu.txt
|
|
|
|
|
Stan The Man
Bah Concepts Division
Joined: 05 Jun 2003
Post Count: 7020
Comment: I'm the guy in Old Archive.
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:16 pm |
|
|
|
Whoa.. man I don't recall seeing this. Now I think I can speak for all of us for the record when I say however much any of us care or not for the score, we certainly don't care for Rosenman himself and his malformed opinion on one of the great composers and scores in film, like, at all.
On top of being a clearly pompous superior twat he's also very much a pot calling the kettle black to be implying Poledouris is lazy in his scoring because he re-used cues in the end credits - A place where an awful lot of films play songs rather score anyway.
I had heard he was something of a prick before but after this - Seriously, fuck that dude.
_________________
I don't wanna pay that, PhotoBucket. Now maybe you haven't heard, but I'm the guy in old Archive. So hows about you just shit snow for a year and I'll figure out something else. Sayonara!
|
|
|
|
|
NukeLord
L-L2
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Post Count: 621
Comment: White Noise, Black Thunder, Blue Velvet or Red Ramrod?
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:26 pm |
|
|
|
| Stan The Man : | Whoa.. man I don't recall seeing this. Now I think I can speak for all of us for the record when I say however much any of us care or not for the score, we certainly don't care for Rosenman himself and his malformed opinion on one of the great composers and scores in film, like, at all.
On top of being a clearly pompous superior twat he's also very much a pot calling the kettle black to be implying Poledouris is lazy in his scoring because he re-used cues in the end credits - A place where an awful lot of films play songs rather score anyway.
I had heard he was something of a prick before but after this - Seriously, fuck that dude. |
Couldn't agree more. It's funny that he infers his egotism in the interview I posted a few posts above. He was annoyed he had to put the opening Star Trek motif at the beginning of his score. Was definitely someone who only really cared about his vision of how things should be - and never gave any thought to what had come before. He simply didn't care.
I think Poledouris was more in tune with the "humanity" Rosenman didn't seem to understand. I've watched the "Remembering Basil Poledouris"documentary on YouTube and I've seen Paul Verhoeven saying the guy treated his family like family when he first arrived in America, that they couldn't make Verhoeven and his family more welcome. A super fan even says that he phoned up the operator for a number for a Basil Poledouris in Los Angeles and after basically telling him he loved his music - he was invited around for dinner that day.
I think a lot of that humanity shines in his scores. It's why the Rosenman score can feel rustic and like (dare I say it again) background noise.
The Poledouris scores are scores that brilliantly switch between the lines of humanity strings and steel mechanics. The Rosenman score (of which I like) - is a collection of everything he wants to put into a movie.
|
|
|
|
|
Stan The Man
Bah Concepts Division
Joined: 05 Jun 2003
Post Count: 7020
Comment: I'm the guy in Old Archive.
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:42 pm |
|
|
|
| NukeLord : | | Couldn't agree more. It's funny that he infers his egotism in the interview I posted a few posts above. He was annoyed he had to put the opening Star Trek motif at the beginning of his score. Was definitely someone who only really cared about his vision of how things should be - and never gave any thought to what had come before. He simply didn't care. |
Indeed but what gets my goat in those statements is not so much that he doesn't care but that he's going out of his damn way to shit on Basil.. a man who is a big part of the reason the first was successful enough to warrant a sequel for his tactless ass to score in the first damn place. On top of being a successful and well-received composer in film in his own right, enough to be in other big and known films besides Robo. I mean yeah I get artists can be harsh in their critiques of those in their same field but again there's criticism and then there's just being plain shitty.
In any case yeah, shows a clear disrespect and disregard for the original character and property and all the great effort that went into it - aside from strictly what they can use (read: bastardize) of it for themselves. This is about as clear (and early on) a showing of the main problem that Robo as a franchise has suffered since the first film made bank.
_________________
I don't wanna pay that, PhotoBucket. Now maybe you haven't heard, but I'm the guy in old Archive. So hows about you just shit snow for a year and I'll figure out something else. Sayonara!
|
|
|
|
|
NukeLord
L-L2
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Post Count: 621
Comment: White Noise, Black Thunder, Blue Velvet or Red Ramrod?
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:57 pm |
|
|
|
| Stan The Man : | | NukeLord : | | Couldn't agree more. It's funny that he infers his egotism in the interview I posted a few posts above. He was annoyed he had to put the opening Star Trek motif at the beginning of his score. Was definitely someone who only really cared about his vision of how things should be - and never gave any thought to what had come before. He simply didn't care. |
Indeed but what gets my goat in those statements is not so much that he doesn't care but that he's going out of his damn way to shit on Basil.. a man who is a big part of the reason the first was successful enough to warrant a sequel for his tactless ass to score in the first damn place. On top of being a successful and well-received composer in film in his own right, enough to be in other big and known films besides Robo. I mean yeah I get artists can be harsh in their critiques of those in their same field but again there's criticism and then there's just being plain shitty.
In any case yeah, shows a clear disrespect and disregard for the original character and property and all the great effort that went into it - aside from strictly what they can use (read: bastardize) of it for themselves. This is about as clear (and early on) a showing of the main problem that Robo as a franchise has suffered since the first film made bank. |
I think in an alternative universe if Paul Verhoeven was back for RoboCop 3. If Orion had suggested should they get Rosenman back for the 3rd movie, there would probably have been a cackle of Verhoeven laughter and a very clear "NO. I will phone Basil for this movie". 
Poledouris > Rosenman
|
|
|
|
|
Archive
.
Joined: 17 Nov 2001
Post Count: 6533
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:39 pm |
|
|
|
Woah, that is some juicy stuff. Had no idea there was that rivalry almost.
Calling the Robo1 soundtrack "absolutely dreadful." is highly unprofessional towards a fellow college. Refreshingly honest though.
GREAT detective work Nukelord!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Log in for PM
Log in
Basil Poledouris vs Leonard Rosenman
3079
