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RoboCop 2 - What happened?
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DoktorNo
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Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 4:44 pm Reply with quote

KidGoesWild :

Hob was a kid. Something like that was never done to this extent before or after and the character to this day is controversial and shocking too much for a movie. Something like this wouldnt be allowed today.


True, Hob character is pretty disturbing, but think about it: in Rio de Janeiro or other big Latin American city there are gangs of armed kids roaming on the streets.

In 1980's in US of A there were a great fear about rising crime, and Robocop movies were playing on those fears, and armed kid gangsters, like paramilitary cops, were just a simple interpolation.




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Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:46 pm Reply with quote

DoktorNo :
KidGoesWild :

Hob was a kid. Something like that was never done to this extent before or after and the character to this day is controversial and shocking too much for a movie. Something like this wouldnt be allowed today.


True, Hob character is pretty disturbing, but think about it: in Rio de Janeiro or other big Latin American city there are gangs of armed kids roaming on the streets.

In 1980's in US of A there were a great fear about rising crime, and Robocop movies were playing on those fears, and armed kid gangsters, like paramilitary cops, were just a simple interpolation.


Spot on!




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Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:27 am Reply with quote

I recently rewatched R2 again. I lost count a LONG time ago. That being said, I caught myself experiencing a few things that I think I just either didn't pay attention to as much, or that just really stood out to me a bit more this go around. Regardless, one of the reasons I love R1 and R2 is that there's something new each time Smile

Archive :
*snip*Personally i see RoboCop2 as a "Murphy moving on" sequel. Although we remember the first movie ending as a "happy" one the only good thing that happened is that Murphy now remembers who is is. And then what? Should he move back to his wife and son and live happy ever after? Retire and go on a fishing trip? Move to a cottage in the mountains and write a novel? No, Murphy continues being a cop.

Robo stalking his wife is a sad and powerful scene as he continues to long for the life he knows he can no longer have. When his wife confronts him he decides that the Murphy he once was is dead.

He moves on.


After my first statement, this sentiment isn't new for me. In fact, I always felt this way, even with my first time watching it as a teen and not having seen the first film, but knowing the story. I feel that this is one of the major strengths of this movie. It's not smooth, it's not pleasant, it's not a cookie-cutter sequel in this regard. The whole thing emotionally for Murphy and the audience is awkward, disjointed, and uncomfortable . . . just as it would actually be in reality, which is very realistic.

KidGoesWild :
*snip*I gotta disagree here completely. I cant even think of one instance when he would act like a robot, aside from when he was reprogrammed. He's all Murphy, and his witty humor and character is ever present ("Dead then", "As good as money can buy", "are we cops!?"). Not to even mention the questioning scene when theres clearly an emotion in his voice and when he chooses very good words to calm her down. Robo-Robocop would say something like "madam you are in emotional shock and psyhcological denial thats natural in post-trauma state. Officer Murphy is deceased". Wanna hear RoboCop totally depraved of Murphy? Check out RObocop 3 - 'Im fine ann, thanks for asking" - acting like he did when he was reprogrammed by OCP, and zero emotion, zero difference in voice range and strenght ("How are you feelin"?-"My efficency rate is 93%", "vehicle approaching"). I always see and hear Murphy in R2, with the only difference being that he more or less accepted he's state


Yeah, I've gotta agree here because Robo isn't a robot nor a human. Going with my statements previously, I really enjoy the disjointedness of Robocop. In everything he says and does, it's as if he's exploring his world as a new creature. This became much more obvious to me this time around. Some of Mr. Weller's deliveries in R2 were a bit odd to me, but I think much of it is him being a victim of the circumstance that is R2. Much of Robo in R2 makes him come across as just plain silly. The awkwardness is still present in R1, but it didn't make Robo look like a buffoon.

I really think that where the awkwardness is very well done is where Murphy is citing the miranda rights to the dead guy. It's funny, it's dark, and Murphy is a victim, but Murphy's not the punchline. Granted, I'm overstating this aspect a little bit, but this has always bugged me about R2.

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*snip*I gotta disagree there - The meeting with Murphy's wife didn't really do anything, they just showed it and it just left off there - it just didn't make sense to have that sequence in the film. It didn't add anything to the rest of the movie, and I don't think it brought proper closure.*snip*


As others have already said, I really think the meeting with Murphy and his wife was VERY well done, if not one of the best aspects of the film. Yes, if one cherry-picks the one scene, then yeah, it's off. However, the whole thing from the moment we learn that he's "stalking" his wife ("making sure she's ok?" and "just being curious" I always feel better explains it, though it does come across as "odd") to OCP coercing Murphy into his identity, meeting the wife, then following her to her car from afar is just VERY well done. Oddly for me, it gets worse for me emotionally when Murphy tells her he exists to "honor" her husband who "is dead". Man . . . .

Also, that scene is for the things unsaid and not shown to us as well. While Mr. Miller did explore Murphy's desires a bit more in Robocop vs. Terminator, I can imagine the same sort of thing going on in R2. For me, it's much more powerful for me to be left imaging these things happening.

Anyways, I really enjoyed everyone's take in this thread, and I'm not sure if I really added anything new, but I did intentionally rewatch R2 with this forum in mind Smile




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Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:47 pm Reply with quote

I like your take of the Murphy's wife sequence. You've given some decent reasoning, and I agree, the moments leading up to the last of the sequence, and indeed a fair portion of the sequence itself is just fine. I like your correlation to real life experiences, that's a good point.

My only gripe, a gripe that still nags me to this day, is that that whole aspect in the movie just was a pulled punch to me. It just always felt it left off too abruptly and when nothing else came of it I couldn't help but feel like I was missing something. Though it did give us a return to that aspect left over from the first film, I myself had already known what the logical outcome was going to be, and the scene doesn't alter or add to that any. To me, all this scene really seems to be is a 'For-Dummies' showing of what was always meant to happen, and that's about it. They don't do anything else with this, and for what could be such a powerful and gripping aspect of the story, it just seems a bit half-assed.

Short of an additional scene where Robo has to encounter his wife again, or a bit of dialogue with Lewis, or even just a showing that Robo/Murphy might have issues coming to grips with this outcome, the sequence by-itself just wasn't solid enough to warrant it's inclusion. It didn't give us anything new, and didn't tell us anything that we didn't already figure out anyway. And again, if it didn't give or add anything new, why even bother if we already know what the outcome will be anyway?

It's not something that hurts the film for me so much as it's something that might possibly have been better off done away with. In some ways, I'm happy the sequence is there, but nothing can change the feeling that I (and some others) have always had - That the scene, good as it is and tries to be, just wasn't necessary by itself.

I don't blame Miller for that, as it's clear he was trying to have some inclusion of emotion in the film, as shown by the early drafts and even some deleted scenes. I just brush it off as Orion wanting some pretty slam-bang action flick first and foremost, and their belief that any moment where something or someone wasn't blowing up and/or RoboCop wasn't shooting people was a moment wasted. It's just annoying, plain and simple.

To me, one of RoboCop 2's main problems, like other conceivably 'big' movies, is that the studio wanted it to be as short as possible with constant pacing, and most good action-oriented films tend to be longer.

Aliens, The Abyss, Lethal Weapon, T2, all these movies cut out things. Most of the things they cut out actually added to the film, some of them in big ways. I saw SE Aliens before the regular version, and I gotta admit, the film just wasn't as strong as it was with the cut scenes, mainly because some of them added extra emotion and heart to what was otherwise, like R2, a sci-fi action film. The ending of The Abyss didn't even make sense without the extended scenes.

A few extra minutes would have been more than enough to include some extra things that would have removed some of the excessive disjoints and inconsistencies, cleaned up some of the narrative screw-ups and overall have made it far better. Bah.
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Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:13 am Reply with quote

Yeah, I agree with you to a large extent, and I certainly understand how you feel. I guess, for me, I'm simply left with what is and just try to evaluate what's in front of me (not saying you're not, but with the first two movies, I have very little wishful thinking with what "could have been" or "should have been", but I think that largely comes with the stark contrast with how I feel about R3 and things afterward). I hope that makes sense Smile

When I watched R2 this past week, I found myself oddly really enjoying what things were for what they were. "Breaking up" is awful and awkward. It's messy, and that's how I felt that Murphy's "break up" with his wife was. It's messy, and I enjoy it for being that way. For me, if Hollywood had tried to clean it up, I may have really liked it all the years that it's been out, but I wouldn't appreciate R2 for what it is now. I kinda hate to say it, but I've found myself liking it because it's awful in the ways that you mentioned.

The only frame of contextual reference I would personally have with this sort of thing is when girls have broken up with me or vice versa, and it's just always awkward and often times there's no closure. For me, it just adds to the mess that's Murphy's life and how tragic it would be for him to have to deal with it. Each time I see the whole sequence, I just feel really, REALLY horrible that this character (Alex) that I care so much about has such an absolute sucky life, yet is forced to carry on.

If I'm alone for liking Robocop 2 more and more each time, I guess I have to be (I hope not!).

* * * * *

"Can't shoot a kid can ya, f***er?"

I really can't add anything to what KidGoesWild has said about Hob, other than to add that my own personal experience as a young teen watching R2 in the theater for the first time ever going to the theater to watch an 'R' movie was just one of the most bizarre concepts I'd encountered at that point. His character was done SO wonderfully, and it's tragic that this film is so under-appreciated by the public at large. Hob's death scene with Robo? Oh man . . . . it almost felt as if Robo's own son was dying in front of him . . . but it's not his son! This kid is a BIG time crook!

Another character . . . Mayor Kuzak. OH MAN! If you really want to joke around with your friends, just start randomly quoting him. A friend of mine and myself used to do it in college and it's GREAT.

"Drugs! Why do people do drugs?"

"Fifty cents, fifty dollars! That's cute, kid!"

/awesome

Smile

* * * * *

I know that Officer Lewis' character has been through a fair amount of criticism in R2, but I actually enjoy that her role in the movie was mainly Robo's partner. In this movie, she's not like his best friend in all of the whole world in the sense that many persons have "best friends" that they share their deepest secrets with. She's sufficient, and I actually enjoy that as well. But also, she's loyal enough to just keep working as a cop because it's "right", not because the rest of her co-workers are on strike.

I also enjoy that the whole time with everything emotional going on with Robo it seems as if she really doesn't know what to do or handle everything. I think that's pretty realistic. She's simply a gal in a very tough situation. I actually like the fact that the scientists who work on Robo are a bit more passionate about having OCP MAKE SURE to bring him back. it also further reinforces the idea that Robocop is a product to the point that he's more than a man, which is something I also really enjoy about R2.

Mainly, I still find some discomfort with Robo himself tap--dancing the line of being the punchline of the movie itself. I think if there had been other things in the movie to make jokes at him, I'd just mentally check out altogether and not like R2 as much as I do.




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Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:03 am Reply with quote

Superquad7 :
If I'm alone for liking Robocop 2 more and more each time, I guess I have to be (I hope not!).


Oh you're not. I still like R2 plenty. As I've said other times, it remains the best continuation thus far. I don't know about enjoying it more, at least by this point, but I certainly don't find myself disliking it any more either. Anyway, I like it plenty. That ain't gonna change.

It's only little shit like this that sticks out in R2, the big things the film are just fine. In R3, both little and big things are fucked up, and well.. Anyway, that's another thing.

Again, I liked your real-life 'break-up' relation, and it is a good one. I'm glad you understand what I'm getting at though, and I can understand your own 'bittersweet' feeling regarding that point yourself.

Lewis could have had a bit more inclusion in the film than she did. Not a hell of a lot, but just a wee bit more. I don't think it would have hurt anything. Just my thought, though.
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Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:24 am Reply with quote

Stan The Man :
Superquad7 :
If I'm alone for liking Robocop 2 more and more each time, I guess I have to be (I hope not!).


Oh you're not. I still like R2 plenty. As I've said other times, it remains the best continuation thus far. I don't know about enjoying it more, at least by this point, but I certainly don't find myself disliking it any more either. Anyway, I like it plenty. That ain't gonna change.

It's only little shit like this that sticks out in R2, the big things the film are just fine. In R3, both little and big things are fucked up, and well.. Anyway, that's another thing.

Again, I liked your real-life 'break-up' relation, and it is a good one. I'm glad you understand what I'm getting at though, and I can understand your own 'bittersweet' feeling regarding that point yourself.

Lewis could have had a bit more inclusion in the film than she did. Not a hell of a lot, but just a wee bit more. I don't think it would have hurt anything. Just my thought, though.


Well, it's good to know I'm in good company. Smile

I hope no one misreads me that I'm trying to justify liking R2. I'm actually rather hard on critiquing movies. But I digress . . . .

As for Lewis, yeah, I agree. Even some different things with the camera while Robo was being coerced by OCP could have been done. I do really like her being kind of a lone ranger in R2, with the resistance to picketing, helping Robo while he's frying himself, and then at the end with the armored vehicle. I think that's a great progression of her character from R1 (aiding Murphy while the rest of her co-workers were gunning him down, particularly).

As for R3, I just reread Prime Suspect a little while ago . . . . Smile




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Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:24 am Reply with quote

I also like Supersquad's take on the meeting. I see we're starting to go in circles here now, but Ill just briefly repeat what was already said in this thread in a condensed form: R2 moved on to another story, and its R1 that dealt with his internal struggle. Still, R2 didnt forget to address it and didnt forget to tie the knot. And even when it did, I still feel sadness in Robo in the scene when theyre watching Hob in the club. I always felt that his depressed tone when hes talking to Lewis was a result/remnants of his pain from the decision he took



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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:12 am Reply with quote

Murphy's characterization: his voice was robotic again, they had him strung out on memories of his past life whe even though he had reclaimed his personality in the end of the first movie which also made it clear that he just 'feels' memories, he has the memory of being human but does not fully remember his old life nor does he need to. He wasn't Alex Murphy anymore - he was just Murphy, his mannerisms with the cold detachment of RoboCop.

The Old Man's sudden trasformation into a full-blown villain instead of the subtle antiheroic figure from the previous movie.

The police strike shouldn't have lasted very long after the first movie considering of what Morton said that Murphy was supposed to clean up the city virtually single-handedly although that propably would be somewhat complicated with the reappearance of his humanity. regardless, Murphy propably would still get the job done and as a result, OCP would let go the striking officers, that's what I'm at least thinking. Delta City should've been well under construction by 2. That's where I thought the series made sense at least, it's set maybe like a year or two after the first movie and ignores the two sequels, and Delta City is built and the police force is pretty taken care of.




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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:09 am Reply with quote

Mainly, I really like that R2 took different directions than some audiences may have expected, yet it still feels very authentically "ROBOCOP". Some of that authenticity can certainly be attributed to Weller, Allen, and the rest of the cast returning, but some of that is certainly attributed to the story, new villains, and everything else that makes up R2.

I always enjoyed seeing the continual growing pains of Old Detroit resisting the change into Delta City. On one hand, you have this Utopian view of what the world could become, but there's always this idea lingering that it can never happen, or at least in the most ideal way (even hailing back to R1 where Dick and Clarance have the conversation of who will be the new crime boss once Delta City is ushered in with a "crime-free" city).

Also, I've always thought that the whole idea that Robocop was going to clean up Old Detroit single-handedly was nothing more than a sales pitch. R2 really enforces that idea with things being looked a bit more like "products" than even R1 did. That's one of the things I like about the ending of R2, as awkward as the ending was to me.




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Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 8:16 am Reply with quote

Officer Harvey :
Murphy's characterization: his voice was robotic again,


I disagree with that. He had a different, softer and slower speech by the end because he just realized who he was and was sad and depressed. But if you would give him a helmet again at the end of R1, he would sound tough again like he does in R2

Quote:
they had him strung out on memories of his past life whe even though he had reclaimed his personality in the end of the first movie which also made it clear that he just 'feels' memories, he has the memory of being human but does not fully remember his old life nor does he need to.


But theres nothing to say that its any different in R2. Exactly like in R1 he has those flashbacks, pieces of memory


Quote:
The Old Man's sudden trasformation into a full-blown villain instead of the subtle antiheroic figure from the previous movie.



We had a thread about it. I didnt see any change. The guy didnt care for human life at all and most importantly, Jones feared him. Jones knew more about him than others. Jones couldve easily use Clarence to take care of him and become #1 himself, yet he never dared to cross him. And we never see Old Man behind the closed doors in R1, only in public in official meetings. Besides, hes not a full blown villain. Hes ruthelss like he isin R1 and cares only for business. Yes, he agreed to kill the mayor but he AGREED to - he never even suggested it - Fax did and he still hesitated


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The police strike shouldn't have lasted very long after the first movie


People for some reason miss the fact that it was a second strike, not the continuation of the same one from R1




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Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 6:41 am Reply with quote

i honestly liked the original a lot better than all of them, part 2 was decent but don't get me started on part 3, i have 2 reasons why i didn't like 3 as much.

1. Robert Burke as Robo, get real, Peter Weller=Robocop can i get an amen to that.

2. Paul Verhoeven wasn't the director, he is awesome at directing.




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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:35 am Reply with quote

If I had to pick one, my biggest gripe with R3 was that Dekker took out all humanity out of Robocop character.



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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:54 am Reply with quote

KidGoesWild :
If I had to pick one, my biggest gripe with R3 was that Dekker took out all humanity out of Robocop character.

what did you mean by "humanity"?




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