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RoboCop: PD - What went wrong?
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Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:14 pm Reply with quote

Another anecdote from my memories of reading the scripts and reading the unpublished novelization:

I find it interesting that the PD team and the fans are happiest/least offended by "Dark Justice." For me, "Dark Justice" is weak and I say that as someone who enjoyed PRIME DIRECTIVES when rewatching it recently (although I found that the optimal viewing method for PRIME DIRECTIVES was to rip the DVDs to MP4 and copy the files to a low resolution iPad from 2010).

I felt that "Dark Justice" meandered with an aimless and pointless investigation into the Bone Machine identity. I couldn't understand WHY there was all this mystery around his true identity; he was just a random guest-star and a character with no significant relationship to Cable and Murphy whatsoever. Also, the Motor City Mangler flashback sequence seemed totally divorced from the purposeless search for the real name and face of the Bone Machine.

It was only when reading the original shooting scripts that I realized the problem. "Dark Justice" deliberately has Cable walk away from Da Bombz situation and then Bone Machine appears. The script makes it very clear that the Bone Machine costume obscures the wearer's identity and the man underneath the suit cannot be identified. The implication is that John Cable is Bone Machine.

This results in severe tension between Murphy and Cable in their later scenes; Murphy suspects that his old friend has become a crazy supervillain, Cable's caustic attitude to Murphy suggests that Cable is indeed the villain. And there's the sense that Murphy is deliberately setting a trap for Cable in handing over evidence that the Bone Machine is a renegade police officer. When Cable says that the Bone Machine is a cop taking the law into his own hands, Murphy says, "It happens," subtly accusing Cable. When Murphy remarks on Cable's good reputation, the flashbacks become relevant: the viewer is intended to watch the younger Cable and look for clues that he may be Bone Machine and his murder of the Motor City Mangler, taking the law into his own hands, is meant to seemingly confirm this.

"Dark Justice" is predicated entirely on the possibility that the villain is Murphy's old friend EXCEPT THE BONE MACHINE COSTUME EXPOSES THE WEARER'S FACE AND IT'S OBVIOUSLY NOT MAURICE DEAN WINT IN THE SUIT WHY WHY WHY? As a result, there is absolutely no tension between Cable and Murphy over their manhunt and no suspense over the identity of Bone Machine. "Dark Justice" was terribly boring for me despite some fine moments of characterization and the loss of this dramatic weight explains why (at least for me).

I asked the PD team about this after reading the scripts and the response was a low, quiet groan and a grim explanation that the Bone Machine costume had proven out of step with the script but with the rushed shooting schedule, they were forced to film the scenes with the costume they had.

Later, when reading the novelization, I noticed that the Motor City Mangler was also different. In the aired version, he's a cannibal. In the novelization, he's a child murderer. I noted that this was far more insidious and true to life than a cannibal. The PD team said that as originally conceived, the Mangler was a child murderer, but Fireworks Entertainment balked at such savage content and demanded a different crime. The PD team contemplated various crimes for which the Mangler would deserve for Cable to execute him. Could he be a counterfeiter or someone who didn't rewind VHS cassettes before returning them to the rental? Could he be an overly aggressive driver? An obnoxious message board poster? A talker during movies at the theatre? They made him a cannibal.

They felt somewhat detached from the Mangler sequence once it was done, although they were pleased to note that even people who hated PRIME DIRECTIVES seemed okay with the flashbacks. In retrospect, they realized: PRIME DIRECTIVES operates on a theme of misusing children: James became a killer due to Sara Cable's machinations and she aborted her unborn child and made it look like a miscarriage and let John suffer that grief to create a wedge that would justify their divorce. Kaydick fathered Jordan into a hard drive for his technorganic virus. And the Mangler was a child killer except now he wasn't.




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Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:41 am Reply with quote

ireactions :
It was only when reading the original shooting scripts that I realized the problem. "Dark Justice" deliberately has Cable walk away from Da Bombz situation and then Bone Machine appears. The script makes it very clear that the Bone Machine costume obscures the wearer's identity and the man underneath the suit cannot be identified. The implication is that John Cable is Bone Machine.


If Iīm not mistaken, in the description of Bone Machine in the drafts says that he uses a helmet hiding the whole face (think Iron Man meets a motorbike helmet), with a rough skull sprayed on top. Itīd make sense to think Cable would be him. Also, his voice is distorted, while in the filmed version that was scrapped.

ireactions :
"Dark Justice" is predicated entirely on the possibility that the villain is Murphy's old friend EXCEPT THE BONE MACHINE COSTUME EXPOSES THE WEARER'S FACE AND IT'S OBVIOUSLY NOT MAURICE DEAN WINT IN THE SUIT WHY WHY WHY? As a result, there is absolutely no tension between Cable and Murphy over their manhunt and no suspense over the identity of Bone Machine.


Funny, as the first drafts had a happier Cable. He supports Robo from the first minute, and heīs the cop who reaches him when heīs on the floor.




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Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:40 pm Reply with quote

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I'm like 95% ireactions is Julian Grant at this point... either that or his spouse or someone really close. How else would someone have an encyclopedic knowledge of the entire making of Robocop PD?

ChAnOoD :
Well, he could be a fan. I had access to some behind the scenes stuff and such, thanks to the fact that Robo-Team was friendly enough. Easy to interview and eager to talk, plus I developed some kind of friendship with one of the writers (I helped with some of his projects, he collaborates on some of mine).

When I was a teenager, the PD team would send me scripts for subsequent projects and were essentially asking for advice on their professional careers from a child who hadn't even finished high school


I find that pretty incredulous. My theory makes much more sense, and I'm sticking to it.




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Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:58 pm Reply with quote

ChAnOoD :
Funny, as the first drafts had a happier Cable. He supports Robo from the first minute, and heīs the cop who reaches him when heīs on the floor.

Interesting! What's James Murphy like in these earlier drafts? I was told that in earlier versions (which I never read), James was a more heroic figure, a figure of decency from the start, but the PD team found it rather flat, so they decided to have James start out as a callous murderer who reprogrammed Murphy to kill Cable but then has a change of heart and turns against OCP.




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Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:58 pm Reply with quote

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Interesting! What's James Murphy like in these earlier drafts? I was told that in earlier versions (which I never read), James was a more heroic figure, a figure of decency from the start, but the PD team found it rather flat, so they decided to have James start out as a callous murderer who reprogrammed Murphy to kill Cable but then has a change of heart and turns against OCP.


I donīt remember, really. Donīt think he was that good, but in the later installments heīs pretty ok with his father. "Resurrection" was a different movie itself, so thereīs no confrontation between father and son. Or thatīs what I recall.




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Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:51 am Reply with quote

I am out of my league here, as I have not read any of the adaptations of the Prime Directives movies or any of the source materials that is available, but as a fan of the movies I can at least offer my take on your topic of Dark Justice. I found it to be somewhat of a bridge between the original film and the material that we are building up to in the other installments. It presents the characters, shows the passage of time, introduces the Bone Machine storyline as a mystery to solve, and then ends, much like Robocop's original movie began, with a cop gunned down in the line of duty and a project to bring him back with technology. Unfortunately, in the grand scheme of things, Dark Justice was mostly a plot device to give us RoboCable. They did spend time laying out the OCP corporate characters, the back stories, and Bone Machine, but the biggest developments in corporation's technology network, Kaydick and his revenge scheme, the Robocop/RoboCable fights, teamups, etc. all rise to the surface much later. This makes me think that like others have suggested (and I'll add, with some reliable information from some of the filmmakers) that it was supposed to be more of a movie, more compelling, and more connected to the rest of the series.
As to why some viewers like it more/are less offended by it, perhaps its because it is a simple story. I must admit, the intertwining stories with Kaydick, his history, Anne R. Key and her band of cyber-warriors, the OCP hierarchy (and the real people in charge), Robocop and his memories of Cable haunting him, Cable chasing him down at every turn (it gets so bad, Robocop has to disguise himself with a cloak to avoid being located), Otomo commercials, the mercenaries who are destroying everyone but Robocop, James Murphy, and anything else I have missed . . . It is a busy series. Only someone who loves the franchise is going to be up for that kind of investment of time and attention to give it a fair viewing.
Or it could be simply because it was the first thing resembling a Robocop movie since Robocop 3 and everyone was just excited to see it until they did.




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Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:54 am Reply with quote

If you ask me the biggest thing that went wrong other than the budget, the script or the decision to make each episode an hour and 20 something minutes, was Page Fletcher as RoboCop. He was far too short for the role. He wasn't intimidating or imposing and his performance was honestly quite awful.

Especially compared to Richard Eden who as old as he was, should have been brought back. I like to call him RoboRunt. No offense to Page. I love him in The Hitchhiker. But he was just horribly miscast here. There are other elements that don't work as well but I don't want to be here all day. lol




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Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:05 pm Reply with quote

I still think it is incredible Page was approached for the 1994 TV series first, and when he turned it down they went to Richard. And then for PD they approached Richard and it didn't work out so they went to Page. The 94 TV series was by no means great, but it is watchable at best. Having Page play Murphy for all 22 episodes would have been horrific.
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Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 9:31 am Reply with quote

PFMC84 :
I still think it is incredible Page was approached for the 1994 TV series first, and when he turned it down they went to Richard. And then for PD they approached Richard and it didn't work out so they went to Page. The 94 TV series was by no means great, but it is watchable at best. Having Page play Murphy for all 22 episodes would have been horrific.


Itīd be an interesting thing to watch, I think. Fletcher would be still small, yes, but heīd have a coach to mime the robomoves. On the other hand, Eden on PD would have some meat; I feel heīs always restrained in The Series. But if he wasnīt in The Series from the first time, heīd end inventing his own moves, as PD didnīt have somebody to make the actors in the suits move correctly.




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Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:15 pm Reply with quote

ChAnOoD :
Itīd be an interesting thing to watch, I think. Fletcher would be still small, yes, but heīd have a coach to mime the robomoves.


That is a very interesting point and really does make you wonder. Fletcher gets a lot of hate for his portrayal of Robo while Eden's performance is usually seen as a highlight of the Series. But maybe they don't deserve all the blame or credit himself. Fletcher should have done more homework to study Weller's movements, but who is to say Eden would have done that if he didn't have a coach? Since Weller studied with a mime to get a very exact way of moving it should be mandatory to have some kind of rigorous training for moving as Robo. Ultimately, it comes down to director and producers. If they wanted Fletcher to move like RoboCop for PD, they would have made him do it. But they didn't, and that just goes to show how little they cared about RoboCop himself. The Series, on the other hand, is very respectful of the original film in terms of production, replicating just about everything, even using stand-in characters for the ones they didn't have the rights to use. So while we often think of Eden as a good Robo and Fletcher as a bad Robo, it really is more a reflection of the creators of each respective show.




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Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:44 am Reply with quote

Plus, Fletcher would have the classical third-act makeup while heīs Murphy without the helmet. And Eden would end with the makeup from PD. Again, thatīd be interesting to watch.



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Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:52 pm Reply with quote

Iīve been doing tests with PD forever, and I think if the miniseries would be made today it could become a hit. I mean, itīs amazing how different things are right now. Back in 1999 PD had a small chance to make the OCP builiding look real. Right now anyone with a laptop could make a realistic OCP tower and itīs background. CGI improved and itīs easier to edit stuff (Iīm trying to make something different with the miniseries, but itīs funny how you can archieve some different looks with edits and layers). I mean, right now you could make the technospike appears without using the prop on a tight, close up shot. Same with the holster. You could make the chinguard dissapear in some frames. They could enhance the sets. And so on.

Hell, they could even make Murphyīs back look like the ones on the movies just with the computer!

I bet even with a low budget like the one they had they could archieve something better if talented people were doing the post-production work. After all, most of Netflixīs Marvel shows doesnīt look like a big budget stravaganza, but doesnīt look "cheap" either.




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Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:16 pm Reply with quote

The problem with TV shows then, and now, is that there always seem to be a lack of time. The excuse for any problem in PD was that they just didn't have enough of it. And i get that. Unlike the 1994 series, Robo:PD was very much a rushed and cheap project.

If PD or a new Robo TV show was made today it would no doubt look better but watching some of the new factory made shows like "Arrow" and "Supergirl" and it is clear time is still a problem. Sometimes the FX looks fine while other times it looks absolutely terrible.

It is tragic when some guys on youtube can create better FX than major network shows on TV.




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Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:48 pm Reply with quote

Page Fletcher as RoboTot was the problem! Hiring someone who never saw the movies was a bad decision. I would have liked to have seen Richard Eden back in the role because I liked him on the series.



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